Can I engrave forged steel?

Having owned a 25 Watt Epilog laser in the past, I can tell you that you will be able to bleach out the color on anodized aluminum (the anodizing remains to protect the aluminium, it’s just whitish in color) and you should have good luck marking steel if you use Cermark material correctly, but a 40W CO2 laser will not make a mark in bare steel, brass or aluminium.

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We definitely need clarification on the steel question.

There’s no clarification. You can’t.

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Yep…after further investigation I’ll agree you can’t… I still plan on trying some mild steel once I have the Glowforge in hand as I have a few ideas on how it might work.

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steve< 1m
I don’t understand how it can engrave titanium but not steel.

Steel and Titanium are very different, but I don’t think you can actually engrave either one with a 45W laser.
Steel is a fairly good conductor of heat, and you need to get it very hot before it changes color at all. This means that a relatively small input like the laser spot is going to have a hard time making a localized change in appearance.

Ti is a lousy heat conductor and it oxidizes very rapidly at elevated temperatures to produce an layer of TiO2. When this layer is thin it shows brilliant interference colors, and generally looks awesome. I am not sure, but I think the Glowforge folks are saying that you can “mark” Ti with the laser, basically drawing on it with a line of colored oxide. The colors are very heat sensitive, and I bet you can adjust them by varying the laser time and focus. Having made a lot of lot of Titanium jewelry back in the late '80s when it was cool, I look forward to experimenting with this!

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@dan, can you speak to this please?

@steve deleted his comment, but, you guys, this isn’t hard to find out. Literally, google what a 40W CO2 laser can do, and you’ll know what Glowforge can do. Yes, their custom module might be slightly nicer, but we’re talking a few percent; most of their innovation is in software.

Marking with cermark will be a piece of case with this. You’ll be able to discolor anodized aluminum. And you can ablate the paint / epoxy off of coated metals. But you’re not going to be etch metals with this thing.

What you could do, tho, is make a bomb-ass stencil and use that to etch / mark other items chemically.

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Jrnelson, I made it a separate topic for clarity. The issue at hand here is that the Glowforge marketing says it can engrave metals. Yet now we are hearing it can’t or it can but only certain ones and using Cermark. I’m not accusing Glowforge of deceptive practices but before my refund offer expires I want to know that my $2500 isn’t going to be used to buy an expensive pair of scissors. I mean seriously, $2500 to cu paper, plastic and leather? That doesn’t seem a bit excessive?

I agree that this especially:

looks like it’s overstating things. Having said that, I’d happily pay $2500 if it only worked on paper and wood and that’s it. But yeah, marketing needs cleaned up for sure.

The “and more” is a problem. Plus community members including @dan seem to have differing opinions on what can be engraved and by what methods.

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The problem I see here is optimistic marketing language compounded by the incorrect use of the word “engraving”. The laser sign industry uses engraving to mean almost any kind of “marking” including with a coating like Cermark. People with a craft/metals background reserve engraving to mean actually cutting into the surface and removing material. There is your confusion right there.

I personally don’t think that $2,000 (I bought a basic) is excessive for a machine that can do what the Glowforge folks are aiming to achieve. I was just about ready to invest that much in time and money to build a lasersaur (http://www.lasersaur.com/). I can imagine all sorts of interesting ways to use this in my craft practice without expecting it to cut metal.

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OK, I am having some serious pre-order second thoughts now, having plonked down my $4K plus for the Pro model in large part BASED ON Glowforge’s clear and unambiguous claims that this maching will ‘Engrave Stainless Steel and Brass’. NOT just make a barely perceptible mark on it, or telling you that you have to coat any metal, etc. I now notice that they have since removed the Stainless Steel from their materials list, really? What’s up here Glowforge? What can and can’t your expensive, ‘prepaid wont deliver until next year’ machine really DO on metal? We need details, pictures, etc., or my prepay is going to cancel pronto. William Tifft, Cato NY

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Again, NO 40W laser can remove metal. Plain and simple. It can remove the anodized coating on aluminum, leaving raw aluminum which nicely contrasts against the anodized finish (assuming it is anodized). It will leave behind scorch marks on misc. metals but will NOT burn away any of the actual material. (A google search will reveal many such examples, pictures, etc.) ( here is a link that has examples http://www.originlaser.com.au/laser-materials/)
think @jkopel nailed it - The term ‘engraving’ has a well understood meaning within the ‘laser cutting’ industry. I can see how that term seems misleading to people who are not familiar with the technology. I had to clarify it for my wife since she was not clear on it either. Perhaps a description that more clearly conveys this to people who are less familiar with the technology can save some heartache for the GF marketing team. There is no malicious intent to deceive.
For sure if you are looking for a machine that is going to carve out material from metals, then you are going to have to look in to something other than a laser.

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When “etching” anodized aluminum you are removing the pigments or color, not the anodizing itself.

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So the short answer is indeed NO, Glowforge cannot and will not actually engrave metal, certainly not steel or brass, two materials they specifically state that it CAN engrave. Below is their email reply to me received this evening. I have requested in no uncertain terms that they retract the claims they are making and replace them with something like “MARKS metals when used with Cermark or related coatings and processes, does not remove any actual material, merely discolors the surface…”

Glowforge looks like a great product, why make misleading claims???


Quoting “Maya (Glowforge)” support@glowforge.zendesk.com: >##- Please type your reply above this line -##

Your request (5661) has been updated. To add additional comments, reply to this email.

Maya, Oct 9, 15:50

Hello William,

I’m so sorry about the confusion and understand your concern
regarding the metals you can work with. I know a Glowforge is a big
investment, and we want to make sure you are happy with your purchase!

Glowforge can etch some metals, like anodized aluminum, directly.
Other metals, like stainless steel, work best if you spray them first
with a product called Cermark. This process discolors the metals but
does not engrave them away, so the surface still feels smooth to the
touch.

Unfortunately the power levels of a desktop
machine aren’t quite enough to cut metal, so your best bet is
lasercutting a template or jig, then using that as a guide for a blade
or saw. I should also mention that we’re big fans of Othermill and
X-Carve, desktop CNC machines that can mill out soft metals. We want to
be sure you get the right tool for what you need!

Unfortunately soft metals like gold, silver, brass, copper, and the
like don’t cut or engrave well. A high-powered YAG laser or fiber laser
may be able to do it, or consider a product like Othermill or Carvey -
both excellent devices from friends of ours!

You
mentioned you were also concerned about when you would receive your
Glowforge. The very first Glowforge units will start shipping in
December 2015. Those are going to high-volume locations where they’ll
get a ton of use and abuse, so we can see if we’re meeting our quality
goals. From that point, we’ll know if we can ramp production
immediately, or whether we need to fix any issues. Either way, our plan
is to have all units shipped in the first half of 2016.

Of course, we’re going to keep our backers up to date on the whole production and shipping process!

Again, I apologize this information wasn’t clear. If you have any follow up questions, please feel free to get back to me.

In the meantime, there’s a ton of information at
https://glowforge.zendesk.com/hc/en-us
and our tech specs at
Glowforge - the 3D laser printer
Really appreciate your interest in the product we’ve all been working so hard on!

Thanks,
Maya

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I feel like this is all due to a differing use of the term “engrave” within the laser community and in common usage. I was expecting anything called “engraving” to remove material. I was feeling a little put out that my expectations weren’t going to be met, but I’m realizing now that the issue was with my narrow definition, not with Glowforge’s claims. If everyone else in the laser industry calls “marking” using a laser and Thermark “engraving” then it would be silly for Glowforge to do anything different. They could use an asterisk to clarify that engraving on uncoated metal can only be achieved with a marking compound to make sure those of us who are new to lasers aren’t going to misunderstand, but honestly their business is making the Glowforge, not educating all of us on the terminology. They have done some of that, but it’s above and beyond what they need to do, and they aren’t being misleading by not defining all the terms for us noobs.

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The definition of engrave isn’t really up for debate. It is what it is and that’s a subtractive process. If some people misuse the term to market their product that doesn’t actually change what it means…it’s just misleading marketing.

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I think the difficulty people are having is that “Engrave” and “Laser Engraving” have two different meanings. I mean searching “Laser Engraving” into a search engine you find many 40W CO2 lasers that make clear the same claims glowforge has made and that people are iterating within this thread regarding.

I think with Glowforge trying to bring laser cutting to the mass market with this great product, they will have the spotlight to have to bridge the gab between the established community and those just now dipping their toes into it. As a person who knows nothing about laser cutting prior to the announcement of this product, I not only have learned a lot but do not feel misguided.

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Maybe I don’t understand the terminology or the process with laser, but isn’t metal engraving, for the purpose of this thread actually a form of stippling by mechanical means? I know on my Curio the stippling attachment (they have not yet released those tools) are the only tools they market that actually etches on metal. Still very low power but one where there is actual contact by a hard metal against a softer metal. I probably would not want a laser that could remove metal imho.