you just need to know you are talking to real live people not computers
Noted.
Pretty sure I chose the physical copy however.
Bummer.
I, for one, will be taking this added time to become a software expert and prepare projects with a greater degree of professionalism. I aim to become deeply versed in Illustrator and the rest of the Adobe package by the time the Glowforge hits the shipping docks.
Good luck GF
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Old problem: We didn’t communicate enough, or well enough. We suck.
New solution: We’re going to hide in a hole and work harder than ever on our Glowforge. See you in the spring! (Or summer. Maybe.)
Ok, Scrooge, now that you have plunged us all into the Dickensian reality of NO GLOWFORGE FOR CHRISTMAS, beware the ghost of Christmas future!
I’m sure Christmas present feels rotten enough after failing to deliver on the promises of Christmases past and present. Please note that Scrooge did not solve his problems by hiding in a hole working on his business. That’s actually how he started them. Things didn’t change for Scrooge and everyone he influenced until he threw open the windows, let in the light, started interacting with everyone from a genuinely concerned heart, and, we presume, blended his continued business interactions with all of that.
You’ve promised us about two days of constant, open communication on the heels of what came as a pretty shocking announcement for many, including me. And you’ve made some generous offers to help us get through this. I put you ahead of Scrooge. Judging from people’s responses, you could still be doing a lot better. However, I give you full credit for ruining Christmas in the un-Scroogiest way you knew how.
I recall that Scrooge had a failed romance in his past, and I don’t want this to happen to you. I say this because we have all been romanced by the Glowforge. It was love at first sight for so many customers. As with many great romances, there are possibly even some who are still keeping their clandestine Glowforge purchase a secret from loved ones who might be critical. (I can’t be the only one.) But try keeping that in the closet for long. I’m pretty sure it won’t even fit!
Let me tell you a true story of a man who once tried to romance a young lady. He thought she needed time to make up her mind about him, so he told her she could have as much time as she needed. Then he gallantly vanished, leaving her baffled and alone but with plenty of time. He never realized that what she needed most was time WITH him to get to know him. Not an excessive amount of time, but you, know, a Snapchat here and there. Do you know what happened to this man? She gave up on him, and after a while he went off to the priesthood. (God seemed to have more patience with this kind of ignorance than the lady could be bothered with at the time.) Now while I am obviously not a romance writer, I do note some important parallels between this story and Glowforge’s, and even Scrooge’s.
First off, in a startup like Glowforge, as in a new romance, presence matters a great deal. The failure to share it can change your future.
Second, your ideas about how your company ought to share its presence aren’t necessarily going to inform you what it really takes to meet someone’s need for it. You have no idea until you ask, and maybe not even then. But there are plenty of people here who can put their issues into clear and thoughtful words. Let your presumptions deflate, and put some energy into learning.
Third, when you are trying to rebuild wounded trust with your customers, and they are outright and repeatedly asking for something, don’t ignore them! They may be putting the solution into your hands by telling their needs directly and in no uncertain terms.
Fourth, when things go wrong, a good apology can make all the difference. I truly feel that the art of making an effective apology is worth studying because it requires true thoughtfulness and understanding. I recommend researching the steps to a good and thorough apology and seeing if you have covered them all. I can tell you have the best of intentions, but I think everyone sees room to improve and bases you might have missed. In Glowforge’s case, I feel this is very important.
Lastly, regarding presence, just a little extra can make a huge difference. Although you are seeing a lot of discontent here due to the lack of information, we really don’t need that much of your time. I would be thrilled with a 2 minute video 2 or 3 times a month. They could be done on a camera phone and barely edited for all most of us care. The content can be anything you want, as long as it’s Glowforge-related and current. I don’t need detailed technological updates, just some communication, footage of a Glowforge and/or something it made, a hello from the team, etc.
I give you credit because Glowforge is an innovating startup, not some huge company that knows exactly what it’s doing at every turn based on years of doing the same thing in different ways to attract customer attention. I trust you. I think you have a good heart and you are the right guy to be in charge of the process. I like the fact that you are so devoted to quality. I think you have a lot to learn about relating to your customers in the ways they need. I believe that a few tweaks can have great results. And I think the whole process of communicating with us will become easier for you as you learn and practice, or as you delegate some of the responsibility for communication to others and take some of the burden off of yourself.
I think there will still be reality checks to come, but I for one, am done being harsh. I fully support the path, even if I still feel a little angry that it had to be this way.
The Glowforge isn’t failing, and neither are you as long as you learn and grow from this. You seem to be the sort of person who is committed to becoming a better person, so I will keep trusting and thanking my lucky stars that I don’t have to explain this to anyone yet. 
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I’m out of likes for a few hours but I really like this post. Partly because I agree with almost everything 
and partly because I try to be post-visitation Ebeneezer myself.
Dan and I have disagreed about his communications for most of a year but I accept his decision because it’s his to make. I think he’s wrong about how transparent he can be but it’s a professional disagreement not a fundamental (virtual) relationship ending one. I think he’s paying for that approach today. It’s still his call if he thinks whatever benefits he sees from pursuing his approach are worth the costs. He’s way more intimate with the details of what’s going on at GF than I or anyone of us can ever be so I respect his decision. After all he’s the one paying for it. We are all affected but can generally escape the consequences without nearly the same pain (excepting those who built plans or made promises based on buying something that didn’t yet exist, but they are responsible for those decisions).
Dan is very communicative of other things - he’s in the forums a lot. His team is in here. Tons of discussions, insights, suggestions, demos, etc of lasers in general and how things work with GF machines or are planned to. I just checked and I’ve been on the forum almost 300 days and read 50,000 posts (created 1,200 - I might need to get a life ). But Dan has been here 467 days, read 60,000 posts and created 3,000 of his own. He’s here and he’s talking and listening and it’s just this one area that we (all it seems) disagree with him on.
Extending your analogy, it’s not just time with him, it’s time of a quality that maters to us - and that’s just a little more openness about problems.
But like Ann Landers (Dear Abby) used to advise - do we think we’re better off with him than we are without him as he is. I do so I’m staying with him.
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I think the issue might be fear of bankruptcy.
If some starts to ask for a refund, eventually Glowforge WILL run out of money, and the ones that held out the longest will get shafted. I have got more than 7K sitting here for more than a year - and nothing - literally nothing - to show for it.
For how long dare I sit on the risk of bankruptcy?
The fuse is lit, I am afraid…
Peter.
Glowforge Pro $3,495.00 x 1 $3,495.00
Air Filter $500.00 x 1 $500.00
Glowforge Basic $1,995.00 x 1 $1,995.00
Subtotal: $5,990.00
Shipping Fees: $1,597.00
Air Filter Shipping $476.00 x 1 $476.00
Glowforge Shipping $560.00 x 2 $1,121.00
Order Total: $7,487.00
In general you’re right. What I think some are failing to take into account is the venture backing. Not that companies can’t fail and investors lose their investment, but the fact that these guys feel comfortable letting Glowforge use their money upfront while offering refunds on preorders means they feel very confident at the moment about Glowforge’s future. If they didn’t Glowforge would be operating off our dollars and theirs would be being held in reserve. Even so, there’s never a guarantee with startups.
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It is impressive that amount of money that you have committed to your GF 
products.
Understand that the $31 Million from investors and $45 Million from those who have committed to owning Glowforges have different draw downs from. Operations are currently being funded from the $31M and as they get closer to shipping the monthly amount will increase, but refunds are coming out of the $45M.
If monthly operating costs are around $1M to $1.5M, over 6 months time (May/June), then $6M to $10M will have been consumed. During this time frame, hopefully between 2,000 to 3,000 GF’s will have shipped. Once the units start getting into owners hands, that will calm those who have purchased and encourage another look by those who have decided to apply their monies elsewhere.
If I had to put a number on the refunds, I would say 10% to 15% will occur over the next few weeks. I would guess that upwards of 30% (3,000 units) of current purchases could realistically request a refund by July/August.
Bankruptcy for the company is a possibility, but it is less than likely in the 6 month time range. Now if it is referring to you, you obviously can get a refund on one or all the items you have purchased.
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To @scottmillersb and the rest of the ranters.
I have read the 300+ posts to date and I get all of the anger and disappointment, you can add me to that category. That’s life, many things get us angry or let us down. The bottom line is that Dan and Glowforge owe you nothing but a laser cutter. They don’t owe you updates, they don’t owe you peeks into the tech, and they don’t owe you a specific ship date on your unit.
What they do owe you is a complete machine that works and that’s it, period. Dan has made it very, very clear that they are using VC money produce these machines and that the money paid by customers will not be booked until each unit is shipped. So they are not using your money to make these things and you can have it back any time that you want, just hit the cancel button and 10 days later you will be fully whole for your payment.
And I will say that I agree with kennethclapp on how the VC’s feel about the company. They put up a lot more than you did and I would bet my socks that they asked Dan some really hard questions, seems like they got some good answers. Unlike you all they actually own a part of the company, they have a lot more at stake. And if this all goes belly up, they get nothing back.
If you have ever invested in start-ups, I am in two right now, you would know very clearly that there are no guarantees, none. It is gambling pure and simple. You may win, you may lose. When we win we generally win big. When we lose it is almost always 100%. That is not the case with Glowforge, you can cash out. Take that path if you want a sure thing. If I am the current VC’s I am looking to either get this company on the retail road or to groom it for sale. If that takes an extra 6 months to protect the millions I have invested then that is what it takes. The reality is that Glowforge is not using your money to operate and creating a return on the VC investment is really what this is all about for those firms.
Just like Tesla or any other company that asks you for your money up front for a product, you take a chance. Just like the stock market, just like putting money up for a new restaurant, just like lending money to a flaky friend. You can lose it all in those endeavors. The refund from Glowforge may not last forever, take it now if you feel so hurt and betrayed, they will gladly send you back every penny.
Again, Dan and Glowforge don’t owe you anything but the machine you paid for. The fact that he communicates at all is has not gone into complete stealth mode is noteworthy. He and VC backers know what they have to do to get a return on the investment and keep the company viable in the future. They need to sell more machines than just the first wave and to do that the product needs to work. It is clear that it does not meet their standards right now. We all are caught up in the maelstrom of creation with them and while it may not be comfortable it is the process that ensures either a viable consumer based company or an acquisition target for the future.
This is gambling and if you can’t accept that you had better leave the casino. At least this gambling establishment comes with a money back guarantee, not something they offer in Vegas last time I checked.
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Heh. I don’t know any of the numbers. I don’t know who - outside of a very elite and closed group - does. It’s not a public company. It’s not illegal to lie to customers, and blowing up numbers seems like a fairly legit way of building trust. The investors know the real numbers, I am certain. But you, me, most of the employees. Not that likely.
I don’t know how much of that initially kickstarted funds is left.
If everything ends up being just perfect - the money lasts and the PR backlash from the customers is forgotten and new clients swarm the release - then the people asking for a refund is actually good for the company. More money per unit!
That’s not that good for the founders tho’. They have been out of their cash for years with nothing to show for it. It’s not a win/win situation.
Peter.
You’re missing the fact that these things don’t exist. At all. Not even on the drawing board. Simply a placeholder for options that may one day be created maybe possibly maybe.
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You want to watch his last Q&A video. The numbers raised are from that video (VC and Crowdfunded) and I believe he referenced the operations funds coming out of the VC funds.
He did say they have 40 people on staff and somewhere (I think) he references the monthly expenses.
Also, @dan stated that hundreds of units will be produced per month during the next 6 months timeframe (100 to 300 is what I based the quantities on) and if you did a 100+100+200+200+200+300 you still get 1100 units shipped, but that make over a 1000 delivered units which encourages everyone.
Please be careful with terms like “lie”, “deceit”, “fraudulent”, “scam” (as others use them), because other than being overly optimistic (which is what most company founders and visionaries are) and really wanting to get the product out the door (which is where @dan was at the being of November, but had to resign himself to another delay), he has been probably too personal in his communications (with hopes, optimisms and giddiness) with the owners in general.
If Glowforge had been a public company, very little if any useful communications would have occurred (especially form the CEO). I think with what he has referred to as “middle of the road” communications (in the Q&A), he still needs to refine frequency and balance between what he reveals to owners, staff and investors (spinning plates on to of sticks) that meets legal requirements, owner motivations and company longevity.
While excited about watching his company develop, I don’t envy one iota the demands placed on him. Compare how he looks in earlier Q&A’s and pictures to his appearance now and you can see how it has affected him.
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Don’t know if this will help ease concerns about how much money Glowforge has actually received from investors, but @jbmanning5 linked this elsewhere:
If you click on “series A” or what have you, it will show the amount each investor put in. That’s how they avoid spending the money we all put down on our machines. Hope that provides some comfort! 
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Great points! Though I’ll add the crowdfunding model of funding and supporter-buyer engagement is changing traditional expectations —driven partially through the challenge that crowdfunding usually sets the expectations as imminent product buyer more than a missional investor.
Assumptions have thus changed about who is a stakeholder and their resulting communication relationships. Paid customers have a level of urgency and legitimacy that requires careful balance because individually the buy-in power may only seem what it is: $3k–$5k/person. But greater influence power can be mobilized through a brand community, cross-comms and influencership that turns them into a dangerous constituency notwithstanding they are not VC shareholders.
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Well said. I have recently had the opportunity to work on a project that was still in development. Very different from plain production and what you said is spot on. Most folks don’t realize these things as they have never gone through it.
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I think what @scottmillersb wants is something more in the way of assurances than what was present in the verbiage of the last 3 delays - I know that the way @dan communicates is not what I would prefer, but continuing on the same path of “trust me, this time 6+ months of delay is really where we will ship” without anything but his word (which doesn’t count for much when it comes to schedule) is just not working.
No one needs to get a detailed timeline. In any schedule there are certain milestones that would make everyone feel good about things. For example, this round of beta units is probably using soft molds for the plastics to finalize details. If that is the case, the hard tooling is a major milestone - Share when that is planned to complete.
That was just one example. Now, @dan has not wanted to do that in the past, and unfortunately I am not sure he will do this moving forward. I believe there are other things that can be done. I think like me, several other customers don’t want to get shiny marketing videos. The crummy quality maker faire videos were awesome. Lets have more of those. Put the cell phone on an engrave piece. Show us the nice medallion engraving - Other forum members keep making excuses as to why that can’t be done (takes to look to post process, they have to focus on shipping,etc).
I know I am hanging around a few more days to give the team an opportunity to communicate how they plan on getting us assurances that 7 more months of wait will actually get people an unit. I don’t know what that will look like, but I do know that what they have done over the last 12 months has not been sufficient.
@dan has mentioned that he does plan to continue a monthly update. That to me would be sufficient (as long as he himself admitted, there arent 3-4 months of silence from the company). GIve us something concrete in those updates (like a home made video of functionality), and that will go a long way.
There are 11 beta testers right now. Maybe one of them will be kind enough to do a 3D engrave of the Glowforge medallion and post it? They can certainly help on that regard in showing those of us without a unit some of the things that everyone wants to see.
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Beta testers aren’t allowed to take requests. Pre-productions testes are though! @marmak3261?
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They aren’t allowed to take requests. That doesnt mean they don’t want to or will do one.
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