We don’t take that approach, since it gives us less flexibility. For example, increasing warranty protection from 6 to 12 months was much easier than it would have been if we’d published a warranty and had to change it - even though it was to everyone’s benefit.
It never fails to surprise me how much time and money lawyers can take up, and how much it has to affect the decisions we make.
To me that’s kind of a cop out. To paraphrase, “We didn’t do it because it would have been a little harder.” There are amendments or addendums to warranties all the time in the world. I’m sure there’s some effort involved. Yes, it was easier to do it the way you did it, but that doesn’t mean it was the best answer. {insert some “road less traveled” cliche here} You do a thing because it’s right, not because it’s easier. If the right thing happens to be easy, that’s great, but I submit it rarely is.
And I’m not saying what you did was “wrong.” To be perfectly clear again, in and of itself I don’t care that the warranty’s not published. Just that the fact that it’s not published lends itself to my suspicion that there are still lots of big-ticket items that aren’t done yet and that the mark will be missed yet again.
Heh. I have no doubt. I’ve said that repeatedly throughout these forums.
Yes exactly. Another recent example here: How long will shipping take? - #3 by dan. They haven’t negotiated with shipping companies yet, another indication that we are not close to volume shipping.
The announcement in December that shipping was delayed because there were reliability problems was just a smokescreen. Yes there may well have been reliability problems but they also could not ship in December because:
And three months later I can’t see any of these are done yet. Who thinks that in two months all these things will suddenly be done? That fact that nothing is finalised ahead of time means everything is on the critical path.
And how credible were any of the previous proposed shipping dates?
I don’t have much to contribute to the warranty discussion, aside from the fact that I don’t particularly mind not having it until production units are shipping. No reason to release something publicly if it isn’t final.
That said, I’ve seen people in the discussion talk about a March shipping date… and I want to temper people’s expectations. The actual deadline per the last update is July 31st for early and August 30th for late. There is no March deadline. There is no April, May or June deadline. There are just two; July 31st and August 31st.
Please temper your expectations so that you aren’t disappointed when March 31st rolls by and you don’t have your unit.
I think that this is reading too much into a simple statement, and is one of the reasons that they are so limited in how they respond.
You have no way of knowing if they have “negotiated” at this time. I would venture that they have, as they have been shipping pre-release units for a while now. In the end, shipping rates, especially for a multi-box bulk item like this can change over time. There is no reason for them to give us numbers now only to have to modify them later (in July when the latest deadline is) should they change.
Not sure where you got that info, but here are the deadlines as stated:
So it seems quite reasonable that our expectations are:
Thousands of units will be produced in April and
Deliveries will begin no later than May.
No single person should expect their unit before one of the two deadlines. The only thing we can hold them to in terms of a deadline is if we ordered before 10/26/15, then we will have our unit by 7/31/17, and if we ordered after 10/26/15, then we will have our unit by 8/31/17.
Even their “most customers” delivery window is a whopping four months that covers out to the last deadline.
All I’m saying is that most people should temper their expectations, lest they be disappointed come April, May, or June and they don’t have their machine.
We get no proper answers so have to glean information from what is not said.[quote=“chadmart1076, post:61, topic:5842”]
You have no way of knowing if they have “negotiated” at this time. I would venture that they have, as they have been shipping pre-release units for a while now. In the end, shipping rates, especially for a multi-box bulk item like this can change over time. There is no reason for them to give us numbers now only to have to modify them later (in July when the latest deadline is) should they change.
[/quote]
When I shipped 3D printers all over the world I knew which courier I was using for each country and the delivery time that I was paying for. E.g. UPS express saver which took about 2 days to the US. Yes it did change over time but I could always answer my customers questions and never had to evade or flannel.
To be more precise, the only thing we can currently expect are these dates. We can’t actually hold them accountable for anything. Nothing happens on 7/31 if they’re not shipping except their $20/mo credit ticks up one more month’s worth.
Thank you.
The speculative stories that seem to abound are just that, stories. Speculations can occur around any number of possible scenarios, but they are just stories and bear no real weight on the true nature of what is going on. That is only known to those within GF. Getting filled with angst and suspicion about hypotheticals can help pass the time, but as you say, we only actually know two dates. Anything else and we would have to ask “Is that true, and do we know absolutely whether it is true or not”. Unless we are on the inside and intimately privy to the inner workings of GF, the answer to both of those is no.
We will be patient. Why? Because there is no other choice. Banging our head against a speculative wall won’t change the pace of things (and besides, I’m loving the sweet anticipation, and the tantalizing glimpses of pre-release and beta test projects shared here). I have so many other projects and creative avenues outside of GF that not having it yet isn’t going to slow down my ability to make and create one bit. 
Then you set yourself up for disappointment when the reality happens and isn’t what you expected or gleaned.
And there is nothing that we’ve been told that indicates that they don’t know exactly the same. We know they don’t tell us everything, and we know there are a myriad of reasons (lawyers, competition, etc…) for why they don’t tell us.
I apologize for harping on this, but it’s deeply seated in me to avoid assuming anything because I hated my last boss who did it all the time. For example, he assumed that because an inductive vehicle detection loop (I’m a traffic engineer) was labeled incorrectly, that I didn’t know how they worked and I got several paragraphs on the workings of inductive loops. I had 10 years of experience at that time, and had simply typed the label incorrectly.
For a year I was banging my head against the wall every time someone would parse a statement or assume from scant info that deliveries were eminent. Turns out that even I was too optimistic by about 9 months and counting. People will do or think what they want. But I agree with you. Though I expect earlier deliveries I have no firm reason to do so. Technically there could be no deliveries until the last week of July and Dan’s post would be accurate. Misleading or vague? Sure. But still accurate.
I don’t think I could be more disappointed than I am now. I have given up all hope of getting a GF pro to the UK this year, and possibly ever. If I do get one in May then it will be a great surprise but the longer nothing is finalised the less likely this seems.
Yes… You keep saying that. I’m saying that Glowforge already has both tempered and set our expectations. I expect to know that thousands of units are produced in April and I expect production units to begin shipping no later than May. My expectation is clearly reasonable as it was stated by the company, not me. It says, in no uncertain terms, “IN MAY.” Not “around May,” or “between May and some other month.” In May. There is no better way to set an expectation than to be clear. And it is. I didn’t name those months, Glowforge did. I can’t decide that for them.
“get their deliveries in May through August”
The only reason I’m commenting again is because you seem so adamant. Your assumption and expectations are reasonable. The parsing is however questionable. May through August could easily mean anytime between May and August. Though I believe May deliveries were the intended interpretation.
To @thomas.alessi.jr’s defense “in May” is pretty explicit. Yes, they might take until August to complete but someone needs to start getting them in May or it’s another miss. Although to be technical, if they ship just a single production unit in May, that could be claimed by GF as victory.
However, if they really do ramp production up to hundreds and then thousands, it would make no sense at all to keep them warehoused instead of shipping them out.
Thanks. It’s not an interpretation though… It actually says “WILL get their deliveries IN May through August.” The only thing that means is that some of the “most” will get theirs in May. And that’s what I want to know happens here in reality. I mean, I’m not makin’ this stuff up here. That’s what it says.
Dan’s no slouch when it comes to his use of the English language. And, while I can’t be 100% sure, I’d bet money that statements like the ones he made passed through legal council first. Lawyers are pretty keen on using appropriate words and, as I’ve seen, so is Dan… IN and BETWEEN being something somebody’d catch.
Not trying to be a jackass here. Just that there keeps being some discussion and I don’t understand it when it’s spelled out so clearly.
That’s all I’m sayin’.
Agreed. I’d be pissed, but if I know at least one person has a final production unit shipped to them in or before May, I’ll accept it.
Not in my comprehension of English. Through and between are not interchangeable.
And actually, there should be stuff earlier if they’re building hundreds on the way to thousands in March and April or they’re stacking stuff in a warehouse. Most contract build places don’t like maintaining stock in their warehouse - they get their efficiencies by moving stuff through the entire chain from raw material in all the way to the finished product on the loading dock being trundled into a truck.