Betas, Maker Faire, Production

I ordered a day or so before the cutoff and I knew that the units that were supposed to ship in December were beta units, not production units. I also knew it was a crowdfunding campaign. I even made sure that my wife knew before I placed the order that we would likely not get this thing for a year or more. That bit was intuition based on past crowdfunded tech, but the other bits were there to find.

This is something that I don’t understand at all. @dan and the GF team have communicated more information, shared more images, tests, laser Thursdays, personal stories, etc… than any other crowdfunding campaign I’ve ever seen. They have been open and honest about their issues, the reasons for their delays, and where they are at. This particular campaign has far and away been the best that I’ve ever seen. Many just post a single paragraph every couple of months stating their current status, but these people actually communicate actively with their community.

The only other big campaign that I’ve been a part of was a 3D printer in the $400 range. They had a similar community, but the actual creators didn’t communicate half as much as the GF team. That said, I’ve been a backer on a dozen or more smaller campaigns through Kickstarter, Indigogo, etc… and while some provide monthly updates, most just update at milestones, if at all. Video games are the worst though. They go away for months at a time, to the point where I have actually forgotten that I backed anything sometimes. Obviously I’m going to be more actively participating in something like GF, as I not only have thousands of dollars invested in it as compared to $30 in a video game, but I also need to ramp up my knowledge in design and use of the machine before I actually receive it.

The overall point of this is that the GF team, in my opinion has done a stellar job in running their campaign and staying active, and actively communicating to the community that has grown around it, than any other crowdfunded item I’ve ever been a part of.

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I jumped in at the very beginning and I never got the impression that I would be getting my GF before end of Q2 2016. I remember thinking about whether I should sign up for the beta testing so I could get a GF December 2015.

I always understood that first date had only been for beta testers and business orders.

However, since this topic keeps coming up, it should have been more clearly stated at the beginning. If it was read carefully I think people would have understood that the general shipping date would have been the end of Q2. But a cursory read that most people do would make it seem like units were primed to ship out before the end of 2015.

I believe it was proof-read, but by someone who already knew what everything meant and not meant as a deliberate con. Ever since I’ve been a part of the community I’ve seen their actions to fall much more on the altruistic side. If they ever prove themselves to be less than sincere in their attempts to create a laser that a first-timer can use and understand (aka me), then I’ll join in the dissent. But for now, I’m still happy to sit and wait for a product that has the potential to drastically upgrade some of my hobbies.

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They didn’t use the crowd-funded money for development. They are using investor money for development.

When I ordered, I knew it was a pre-order/crowd-funding/kick-starter/whatever. From reading the website before I ordered, it seemed to be very clear about that.

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I ordered on the second day of the campaign I think, from this page https://web.archive.org/web/20150927190345/http://www.glowforge.com/order.

It says “Preorder Your Glowforge at 50% Off. Early bird pricing available for a limited time only. Shipping December 2015.”. Small print says “You are pre-ordering a product that has not yet been manufactured.”.

It doesn’t say it is a product that isn’t developed yet.

There is no mention of beta units or Q2.

I don’t see how anybody would interpret it as meaning anything other than pre-order now, they will start rolling out in December. I have backed many Kickstarter and Indigigogo campaigns with my eyes open and expect a year or more to go from a prototype mock up to full production. Since this was only three months it had to be fully developed. The fact it wasn’t was a con. Nobody with any product development experience could think it would ship in December or even in Q2 if they new it was only at early prototype stage, not fully functional and needing approvals.

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The website was more than just the order page with that blurb about it not being manufactured yet. It was in the text on another part of the website that the December units were going to be beta, and it was in the text elsewhere on the site that this was a crowdfunding campaign, and I recall the Q2 part as well. I would hope that anyone spending $2-$4k would take the time to scour every available piece of text on the website before ordering.

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I think this thread has the info you are looking for. There are multiple posts with multiple ways of answering the questions you brought up.

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From reading the FAQs before I ordered, they had stated they wanted to start shipping in December, and all pre-orders in the next few quarters.

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By definition, a startup refers to a new product development. I agree the wording in the announcement was overly optimistic, and led to assumptions (from me too) - but the highest level of optimism is a requisite to roll the dice and throw your resources and yourself into an arena of this magnitude. I don’t fault them for that. The assumptions were mine.
Then there is the fact that life on earth requires us to put that little piece of rubber on the end of a pencil - best laid plans of mice and men and all that.
No one has complete control over the future, and if you think you do or someone else should, you are delusional - or perhaps just overly optimistic, eh?

I have trouble seeing a standing offer for a full refund as condescending, it’sjust the bottom line. Not satisfied? No problem - your refund is on its way.
What does fit that definition is referring to anyone who expresses a higher level of trust/confidence/patience than you do as a “Kool aid drinker”. (Burp). :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: I read that as intentionally derogatory.
IMO use of that term implies a level of inferiority to anyone who holds a different perspective. We all have different perceptions
Nobody here resides beneath anyone else, and I personally would refrain from making that distinction.
Nothing wrong with being skeptical, but deriding anyone who doesn’t share that view is misplaced frustration.

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So now the people who ordered are at fault for assuming it was December 2015? When it clearly stated December 2015 ON THE ORDER PAGE, no mentioning of it being “beta”, that is where you have that type of disclosure (An asterix, something).

Look at the other thread with the geekwire article (emphasis mine) - not the only ones with that impression:

“Glowforge, which last month raised a $22 million funding round, has delayed shipments of initial orders twice. The company’s original plan was to start shipping the “first units” in December, two months after the crowdfunding campaign ended. But in February, Glowforge said those shipments were delayed, telling the initial backers who pre-ordered during the 30-day campaign that they’d now receive their printers in June.”

Like @jdodds mentioned, the slick marketing video, coupled with a 3 month delivery window was an incentive to a lot of us (myself included). That we are 1+ years from that point in time for a potential deliverable shows how far it actually was from being a production ready product.

While @Dan has been forthcoming with some items, where it really matters to give people confidence in the estimates it has fallen short. Are the molds completed and tooling ordered? Is testing on the electrical components complete? Shifting a date arbitrarily by 6 months does nothing other than add 6 months more to the schedule.

That beta testers are still being recruited is a little scary unless they are just looking to improve the software end. Another thing that could get clarified to calm the masses. If there is anything that has not been handled well is the communication of progress, especially given the 15 month delay from original purchase for a lot of us.

I am anxiously awaiting my GF, and I hope that it does come by the end of the year. It will be a nice Christmas gift for myself.

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So the machines going to New York will be some of the newest off production, rather than the old workhorse units?

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Personal opinion: If you have regrets, get a refund. if you have questions, ask (nicely…please). If you want to learn, grow, have fun, laugh, and find the answers to a vast majority of your questions then read the forum threads. Hell, you might just find yourself commenting and meeting people with similar interests. If that makes me a “kool-aid drinker” then, CHEERS! BOTTOMS UP!. I have learned so much from these great people and had so much fun. Can’t wait to meet a few of you at the Maker Faire in Seattle!
Everyone on the Glowforge team has been through difficult start-ups, and has pulled off amazing things. I may be delusional, but not only do I believe I will get the laser cutting unit of my dreams, but I will be blown away by how great it is and how it will improve even more as we progress!

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This ^^:thumbsup:
Optimism! Now pass me that Kool aid… :wink:

Now, in defence of the skeptics, I’m sure if I had experienced disappointment or financial loss due to being taken advantage of to a much greater magnitude than I have been, I’m sure I too would maintain an elevated suspicion.
But there is a difference between skepticism and pessimism, the latter being nothing more than being prematurely disappointed in the future.

it is not such a shame that we die, the real shame is what dies within us while we live”.

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The material was there. Could it have been stated in a better way? In a better location on the site? Sure. But it was available.

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10 likes for this! :smiley:

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:sunglasses:

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@Jdodds, I’m so terribly sorry we let you down. We failed to ship on time this June. It’s something I think about all the time, and something that motivates us every day. Falling short on our commitment to thousands of people who trusted us does not sit lightly.

I humbly apologize. I did not mean for even the smallest note of condescension.

Despite my personal limitations, I’m lucky enough to now be surrounded by a team that can and regularly does work magic. Any failures are on me; they’ve been, and continue to be, nothing short of astonishing.

Please refrain from insulting others here.

We haven’t decided yet. Anything we show in public gets documented very closely by those who admire and are “inspired” by our work, so we tend to err on the side of showing older hardware, even when newer hardware is available.

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Understandable.

If at all possible, can you bring along a plastic piece with the passthrough cut out removed? Even if only available behind the table on request, I just really want to poke my fingers in the hole and get a better sense of the opening :slight_smile:

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Said the Bishop to the actress! (Sorry, but I couldn’t resist that.)

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I believe a lot of these articles that have been written by people who apparently did not give due diligence to the facts are a big reason for the confusion on the December shipping date of beta units. It has bothered me from the beginning how much false info has been in these articles. I ordered on October 22nd instead of earlier because I read and reread everything the company (not others) had to say. And I understood our units would be coming in the 2nd quarter of 2016. The info was there to find and not in the small print. They have only had the one delay (granted a big one) from this June to December and been very open and generous with us. I am grateful that giving us a quality product is top priority for them and not rushing garbage out the door that will need to be recalled in 6 months. Give them and us a break. :o)

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Back in September that was not the case. Let me show you the waybackmachine URL from September 24th

https://web.archive.org/web/20150924190511/https://glowforge.com/order/

So there is NOTHING in the FAQ in September that would indicate that December would be beta units.True that it does mention ramp-up, but its not this “it was always beta! and you didn’t do your due diligence to find that out”.

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