I know I’m not @dan, but you might be getting anxious about this without need, so if you care to read through my understanding of the situation, it might help fill the time while you wait to hear officially from him. (And he can correct me if I have anything wrong, won’t be the first time.)
My understanding is that it’s perfectly okay to personalize the file or make modifications to it inside the Glowforge user interface once we have bought it. We can add engraving to personalize it, add vectors to cut it differently, resize, reshape - make it into an octopus swirly thing - whatever. I’ve done those things over the last year frequently without getting crosswise of the IP situation.
What we are not supposed to do is download the files to our own devices to make modifications to them there. If they wanted us to do that, they would provide a download button for our use. Since we don’t have one, I’m assuming they don’t want us to do it. As to whether or not there would be consequences for doing so, only @dan can answer that one. Not worth the risk to me.
Your other question deals specifically with the catalog issue as well. Just because you can tell someone that something is possible, doesn’t mean you should. It’s not necessary, and places the burden of potentially making a bad decision on an innocent who might think it’s okay because everybody else is doing it. And it might not be okay.
It has been allowed in the past on other aspects of the system, and it always makes me cringe a little when it has. But no, there is no rule against it that I know of. I just consider it kind of a dicey thing to do. If someone gets into trouble over it, for whatever reason, that is likely when notice is going to be taken, so if self-preservation is a concern, I’d just avoid it as well.
And pointing that out to people who don’t realize it is probably where we are going to start getting into trouble. So talking about it here is not something I’m going to do.
I know it. It’s not some great big revelation to a lot of the people around here. Who are we impressing by bringing it up? Do we really need that kind of attention?
Again, that’s a very difficult area. If people don’t know what’s stored on their computers, then why call them their computers in the first place? I would (and I do) very much want to know what any given piece of software is doing to my machine!
There’s an observation that if the people on one side of an issue respond to disagreement by walking away from the group, the only ones left will be on the other side. Consequently, this is not an effective way to advocate. That’s my post-hoc rationalization for not following through on my rage quit.
I want to respond further to some of these comments but I don’t think there is a middle ground here. Either saying “Actually the opposite is true” is a perma-ban-worthy violation of forum rules against “intellectual property” violations, or it isn’t. And if it isn’t, then the reason he was banned is that this forum has some people who are more equal than others and they used their influence to get rid of someone they don’t like. Regardless of what you believe, I believe we’re all dug in on this and no amount of discussion will change anyone’s mind.
Still, I think that’s what happened and I think that’s morally wrong. On the other hand… I really love gadgets. Probably pathologically. And my Glowforge is a truly excellent gadget that speaks to me on many levels. It’s a laser. I can make stuff with it. It offers endless opportunity for nerding out and attempting to achieve greater technical mastery. And participating in this forum feeds that. It’s a kind of bribe. Don’t rock the boat and you can keep getting your fix. So regardless of whether I stay or go, I’m going to end up itchy and irritable.
But as long as I’m here, it’s stuff like this that really gets to me:
That is simply false. I fail to see how the words “Actually the opposite is true” lay out anything. Several people on this very thread have described in far greater detail how to gain access to the SVG files from the catalog (which have no IP protections). Heck, your own sentence is an acknowledgement that it’s possible to do so, therefore you’re guilty of the same crime as @palmercr. Unless Glowforge bans half of the people participating in this discussion, it’s a tacit acknowledgement that they are not and do not intend to apply the so-called rules in a fair and consistent manner.
Eventually it’s probably something that Glowforge is going to address anyway. In the interim, I prefer to keep hanging around on the forum.
This isn’t really likely something that folks need to stress out over though - I know that in the event of an “Oopsie!” they’re going to notify the person who did it before it gets draconian. And most people are not trying to promote theft, they just might not think about all of the implications of what they are doing before they do it.
So just avoiding discussing the subject is easy enough until then, or provide a noncommittal answer if someone asks about it directly. A good reply is to simply suggest a method for modifying the file directly in the interface, since the usual need is for a modification. Most people don’t really care about the sausage making details.
And we’re in a very small minority. Most people don’t care or don’t have a clue as to to how these machines work - Apple made that praiseworthy in fact. They just care if it works. How it works and what it might do in order to work is of no more consequence to them than knowing what happens when they push the start button in the car (except that it starts). Most people would probably take offense at the suggestion that since they don’t know how their computer works it’s not theirs
When he was suspended the first time, it was for posting detailed directions on how to get catalog files, unless I’m mis-remembering that. That post is now long deleted, for obvious reasons. If I am mis-remembering and he was suspended originally for a different reason, then I apologize.
However, I would prefer if you do not mis-quote/cherry pick my post to try to make your point.
What I observed, in the first instance, is he posted the actual SVG in the thread. Thus giving everyone access to the file (that includes non owners, anybody coming to the forum, with read-only access). He did later delete that file himself. It also wasn’t a catalog item but one of the files given to owners.
Really? I don’t see it for sale or “already purchased” in the catalog like I do for items I purchased there. I do totally agree it should be treated as such.
Because it’s showing potential repeated violations of the community standards.
I’m not Glowforge, but this seems like what happened.
He was suspended for a reason originally. He knew why he was suspended originally. Someone asked a question, which he could have ignored. Instead, he knowingly hinted at an exploit that would violate the same standard again. He was trying to put his toe over the line. This might be why he got permabanned.
You don’t need one… anyone is free to change their mind. Glad to see you decided to stick around to continue the dialogue.
What I’ve noticed from over two years of dealing with these folks is that they are scrupulously careful about not playing favorites. If you have gathered the impression that some people are paid attention to more than others I fear you are very much mistaken.
I will grant that there are certain areas of the development of the machine and software that have been paid more attention up to this point - that’s normal for this kind of machine and software development, but in point of fact, that is going to change one of these days and maybe soon. As soon as it does, the attention and focus is going to shift to development of new options, technical improvements and a whole lot of other things that those of you who are more technically oriented are going to be needed for.
Sux that you guys have had to sit on your thumbs patiently for so long - but hang in there. When the time comes, your expertise and experience is going to be needed to improve the product for everyone.
Yes, it’s taken longer than anyone likes. But it’s a really good product that’s been worth the wait, IMO. There’s nothing we can do about how long it takes to get to the transition point though, so I don’t even have anything helpful to add at this point except… stick it out, your input is needed.
(And I generally don’t try to change people’s opinions, so I’ll leave it there.)
We can’t make rational decisions about how Glowforge executed the ban without knowing concretely, in writing from Glowforge itself the reason for the second ban. We can speculate all day long, but putting out “he got banned for this” like its a fact, when nobody but Glowforge and maaaaybe Palmer have the facts isn’t going to help anyone. Actually, come to think of it, isn’t stating opinion as fact against forum rules? So please stop it with the “It was clear why he got banned” nonsense, because contrary to popular belief, it is not clear due to the lack of information from Glowforge. Like I said waaay up there somewhere, its a pretty safe bet, but it sure isn’t clear
I think you could be a little more fair than that. Lots of boats have been rocked in these waters over the past few years and a total of one ban and one suspension (that we know of). Glowforge has allowed a ton of leeway for discussion on the forums they pay for. Dan and other staff have been openly insulted over the years - no punishment, no censoring (or very little censoring). Competing products as an alternative to waiting for the GF have been discussed openly - even with recommendations from Dan.
You’re right. I didn’t actually mean to imply that Glowforge was saying such a thing. I was referencing my internal dialog, something like the brain of an addict trying to make the case that robbing a liquor store is the right thing to do. Poor writing on my part.
Again, the previous poster used the phrase “circumvent IP protections”, and in my opinion it’s unfair to put it that way – this suggests that there are specific technical measures put into place to protect the catalog files from being saved. Obviously I’m at a disadvantage here to any further as I would risk a ban by talking about the details.
Not trying to make you talk about particulars. I read it more as the files weren’t protected in the sense of copyright/IP. Same concept of right-click/Save As, I feel. The accessibility or inaccessibility of a native file, the amount of effort required to obtain a file doesn’t diminish the overall act of something. Know what I mean?
It’s all about context. Like I said, I was responding to the phrase “circumvent IP protection”. It doesn’t make any sense to talk about “circumventing” the default copyright assigned to an author of a work by the Berne Convention. Circumvention is a phrase used in connection with defeating technological protections. That’s why I find this whole argument so exasperating. A bunch of reasonable people are dropping context every second reply and talking past each other. I’m sure I’ve done that too. It’s long past the point where I’m helping anything, so I should really stop.
WHOAH, be careful! You literally just told people how to steal IP content, in direct contravention of the rules we have been discussing all afternoon. I don’t believe you deserve to get banned for this any more than palmercr did, but if the moderators are enforcing the rules, this is, if anything, a more blatant violation than his.
