More thoughts about internet requirement

What mad_macs said, but I think the chances of Glowforge folding before they get to the point of firmware release is incredibly slim. The other two points, however, make a :glowforge: open source interface a long shot. The fourth point for your consideration is that the laser tube is a custom part with a finite lifespan. Without replacement tubes what’s the point of developing an open source interface?

What they need to succeed is a large-ish customer base that semi-regularly uses their units. That their initial pre-order count was impressive and having owned a :glowforge: for three days now I am of the opinion that I will not be stuck with a Glowbrick Pro. Even if the development was impressively budget-busting and the BOM costs way out of control and somehow glowforge is mismanaged into the ground, as long as the machine works well (and I think it does) and there is a good sized base someone will probably come along, say, " I can fix this", buy the remains, and keep it going (repeat as necessary.)

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If GF don’t release the firmware then the simplest thing is to replace the electronics and run GRBL and Laserweb. Open source can outperform small companies if they are popular enough to attract more developers than a small company can afford.

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What would be cool is if Glowforge put all the backend code to run the glowforge into some sort of digital escrow beforehand, that would be released if the company ever went under, or sunsetted the service. That way we would all have some reasonable expectation of continuation of service should something happen

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Motion control is easy and nothing new. What they bring to the party is a good GUI and the vision stuff, which isn’t really working yet. I expect the vision stuff can be done with OpenCV and has a lot in common with the OpenPNP project.

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I seem to recall Dan saying that IF glowforge dissolved the firmware would be released.

The potential for the company to be sold and the new owner going to a subscription model is more likely than the company failing I think.

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(emphasis added)

It wasn’t an IF, it was a very distinct WHEN:

“here’s a commitment we’ll make right now: When we launch Glowforge, we’ll also release a copy of the firmware under GPL.” @dan

I’d say the Glowforge has been released. Wouldn’t you?

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I’d say I’d rather they focused on getting everyone their machines before getting this firmware out. If they could do it without affecting shipping an iota, fine. Of course, if that were true I think they would have done it.

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They’ve been very clear that while the machine is complete, everything else is still in a workable but still beta stage. I’d rather they didn’t release beta firmware as “the” firmware release…just my two cents.

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I don’t see how them putting together a releasable firmware would have any impact on Flex’s manufacturing and shipping rate.

The hardware and the software are two separate components, and, presumably, the hardware is in its final form. So, any work done on the firmware (or any software, for that matter) should have -zero- impact on the delivery rate.

I do believe, based on Glowforge’s own statements and updates, that the firmware is relatively stable and has had few updates. The bulk of the “beta” software work is on the GUI that resides in the cloud, which they haven’t promised to release as open source.

And, they can always release newer versions of the firmware as they become available. Nobody says we are “stuck” with the first version they release. At least, I hope we’re not…

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Wasn’t the heat sensor trigger debacle all firmware updates? Betas can and should be pretty stable. That’s why it’s no longer alpha.

But as I said, only my take on it. :grin:

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I believe so. It also may have been a combination of cloud and firmware updates.

If they had already released the initial version of the firmware, and then released the revised version after they fixed it, wouldn’t that have been great to be able to look at a diff between the versions? It would be informative to see what they changed.

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I think I said it wrong. Getting everyone their machines and having them be as close to advertised as possible in their operation. That does take software work.

The only reason I could think of to need the firmware right this instant is to start the open source work or whatever in preparation for Glowforge vanishing pretty quickly. They’ve got enough funds to be around for a good while.

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I don’t think they are going to vanish anytime soon. There are many other reasons.

There are people who purchased this product that are not unsophisticated neophytes. Many of us are avid hardware hackers who bought this platform based on the promise of openness.

While it certainly could be reverse engineered, it shouldn’t have to be. They promised otherwise.

From the link I posted earlier:
@dan “Glowforge firmware is user-flashable, so you’ve got both an escape hatch (if something happens to us) and a platform to experiment with. If you buy it, it’s yours – you should be able to do what you want with it.”
@dan “PS: no pentalobe screws either.”

One could easily say, “Well, they will release it when they are damn well ready. And you should not worry that they won’t do what they said they will do.”

Well…

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I think this is an instance where you, as one of the folks smart enough to do something with the firmware, prioritize this higher than I do as one that cannot. I also don’t have a machine on the way yet and am enough of a neophyte that the more magic that the software can do, the better off I’ll be.

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I’m not chomping at the bit… I do believe that eventually they’ll release the firmware.

In the meantime, I’ll just be happy when I receive my GF (Can’t promise I won’t be looking under the hood :sushing_face: ).

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I’m very optimistic it wouldn’t take very long. http://lasergrbl.com/en/

  • Load GCode with job preview
  • Image engraving with grayscale conversion, dithering and vectorization!
  • User defined buttons, power to you!
  • Grbl Configuration Import/Export
  • Configuration, Alarm and Error codes decoding for Grbl v1.1 (with description tooltip)
  • Homing button, Feed Hold button, Resume button and Grbl Reset button
  • Job time preview and realtime projection
  • Jogging (for any Grbl version)
  • Power and speed overrides (for Grbl > v1.1) with easy-to-use interface
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I might be wrong but I don’t think Dan promised to release the firmware they use to talk to the cloud. I think he promised to release a firmware that accepts gcode and works like other laser cutters with just basic functionality.

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That’s my understanding. Right now, all the motion planning is being done in the cloud and the GCode output – not the GCode itself, the actual motor motion code – is being sent to the Glowforges. My understanding is that they’ll take that GCode module and move it into the firmware at a future (or final) version when things are more stable.

It seems like subscription software would be a good thing for GF. If they get the hardware right, then keeping up with tech developments will need to be supported in the future as well. A modest fee might be acceptable as insurance for the future?

It’s really hard tom imagine how @dan could have been more clear about his intentions:

[In the] short term, here’s a commitment we’ll make right now: When we launch Glow forge, we’ll also release a copy of the firmware under GPL.

And:

That’s why I made the open firmware guarantee. There’s no backsies on that once we ship

What I get form this is: Once the Glowforge ships, @dan promised/guaranteed to release the firmware that ships on the device as Open-Source software, using some unspecified version of the GPL (Guessing GPLv3). Presumably this would also include build instructions, as well as instructions on how to side-load custom-build firmware into the device.

Gcode support was NOT promised and SHOULD NOT be expected. That would take a great deal of additional engineering effort. What I expect is the firmware that ships with the device is what is released as open source.

My point (among other points) was that the GF is now shipping. If @dan hadn’t been so explicit about his timeframe for releasing the firmware, I wouldn’t be too concerned. But he made it clear it was a very high priority based on his wording.

So my concern is, if not now, when? Is this a change in policy? Or is this just more of the same pattern we’ve seen from Glowforge: over promise, under deliver?

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