Me either. 
When programs used in office cubicles went to the server based modeling, they mouthed the same complaints, but it has grown, not disappeared. The IT people loved it, because prior to that they had to go to each machine and install program upgrades. Now they do not even have to maintain expensive server rooms on site for access, just a robust Wifi .
Same argument was made when games stopped being stand alone. So many console adaptions and gaming companies have come and gone, yet cloud gaming thrives and becomes more adaptive. Almost to the point that if you do not have Internet access, you are not gaming (and not just with the hardware consoles, but computers as well).
I have not a clue where you live that network connectivity is unreliable, but if true, i would suggest finding a better provider, because it is much more reliable today than ever before, with all the providers scrambling to be the biggest, fastest, best one.
Regardless. Using the glowforge tools allows access to the glowforge without using an expensive computer. If you have ever used a 3D printer, you can appreciate how much horsepower is needed to do the necessary pathing on large or complex builds. Yet you can send a design to the GF in minutes with anything that can access the UI.
That is not a small thing, and is the real power behind using the cloud for this.
No matter. We all knew this was cloud based going in, or at least it should have been obvious.
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I want a machine that works and does what GF promised. There are many things that I like about the Glowforge. I don’t want or not want a cloud service. It’s an implementation detail.
Maybe so. Unlike you, I don’t have every copy of the agreement. If Glowforge claims that new versions of the agreement are automatically agreed to by their customers when they are posted (an audacious claim!), then it would apply if any version prior to the latest included that clause. As to whether they actually gave notice, it would be up to a court to decide if updating a web page that existing customers never visit, by itself, constitutes “notice.”
As I said earlier, if it comes to it, it will ultimately be decided by a court, not by anyone commenting here (hopefully, it won’t come to it). You posted multiple versions of the agreement. The Wayback Machine has one with a February 2018 date that I linked to. As far as I know, I didn’t agree to any of those versions. February 2018 was almost 3 months after I got my machine; your earliest 2016 agreement is a full year after I paid for my machine and a year before I received it.
Absolutely not. I’m just stating why I’m not worried that they will intentionally brick my machine.
I’ll assume you’re not trying to be condescending. I understand the agreement and I’m well aware that this agreement is for all of their customers. I’m not concerned just for myself.
I don’t care about their software. I want to continue to use the hardware I purchased.
This is unreasonable.
I have no problem with the fact that they made the implementation decision to use a cloud service. As a software development manager, architect, and developer with decades of experience, I am well aware of the pros and cons, As a user, I don’t care one way or another about their decision to use a cloud service (except the frustration we all have when it goes down). I want to continue to use the hardware I purchased.
Nope. I just don’t want to set the precedent that they can make any arbitrary changes without warning or notice, and force all of us to agree without recourse. I’m bringing it up now because this is the first time since I received my Glowforge that I was blocked from using it because they insisted I agree to a new version of the terms of service.
Please take this up with the Glowforge lawyers.
This is the most telling hole in your entire illogical, overwrought diatribe. ANY piece of hardware with a software component has some kind of TOS you agree to to be able to use it, doesn’t matter whether it’s cloud or local based.
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I think of the development of the cloud model in the last five years since Glowforge made its commitment. I am not well-versed at how law and practice shakes out regarding hardware and the software and services that are required to use that hardware. Tech is no longer just a hammer that doesn’t need an operating system. How a company provides a technology (that means they are providing not only a hardware device but also a service to use that hardware).
I do recall the topic that @rpegg mentioned above and the good discussion we got into at that time. I understood that I had little agency in this enterprise and had to rely on the good faith of Glowforge to make it right. And that is why I stuck with this forum and read every post for over three years because I knew that they had all the cards and I had to rely on them.
I think it is reasonable that you have posted your disagreement with the change in TOS. But I really am having a hard time understanding how you didn’t see this coming and just would have to accept it.
Even the whole thing about posting the firmware has been demonstrated as being something that won’t really help anyone.
I do think that there are a lot of folks who might be a bit naïve about Glowforge and not understand just how precarious a situation this is. We had many long discussions about the initial advertising and how it sold a great product, but we are still waiting on some things to roll out.
And if they get sold, I just can’t see another company keeping the same ecosystem at all. I’m pretty pessimistic about that. I would say the value of the company is in the intellectual property at the moment and not at the revenue stream. That’s just a guess and I am pulling for them.
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Thanks Roy for bringing this to everyone attention:
We all signed an agreement with Glowforge where we agreed to allow them to put a rope around our neck and to stand at the Podium.
I for one have felt the rope getting tighter around my neck as we start to loose more hours do to downtime on there severs between updates and the severs going down.
I suspect that in the very near future there is going to be a mandatory monthly fee to use our glow-forge on a subscription basis.
All of us have to take responsibility for the fact that we signed complete control over to Glow Forge and therefore anything they wan to do , legally they can and will do to us.
I am curious as to how much Glow Forge will ask us to pay a month to be able to use our Glowforge on a subscription model which i am thinking will be $39.95 for starters .
Its coming and we cant stop it from happening, some will drop out , others will sue but most of us will maintain as they got that rope around our neck and there is no where else to go…
Happy cakeday @coalakida.
While subscriptions to additional features is coming, charging for basic use of the Glowforge would be totally against everything that has been promised by Glowforge thus far. Yes, they could do this, especially if another company buys them out, but it is not coming and I don’t see it happening.
What makes you think that in the very near future they are going to charge a mandatory fee to use the Glowforge? Nothing I have read on this forum gives me any indication that this is coming.
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That is exactly what Roy was attempting to say but in not in so few words.
When it becomes objectionable.
If you look at some of the bigger companies such as ADOBE you can see how little by little they started to changer there policy until CS6 was no longer even supported on any machine forcing everyone to Subscribe.
Many of us Paid $3500.00 for the Life Time Suite however there was a special addendum to the Adobe Software policy update that they called End of Life Contract and they got everyone really good. In the end we all had to pay for the Subscription as our Software was ended.
I suspect that is where Glow Forge is heading as we continue forward as they continue to follow Trend.
Oh my goodness… a lot of people beating up on poor Roy here. Not necessary. He brings up a perfectly valid point and a great question. Many agreements don’t change.
Anyway… this just in from Glowforge HQ… 
And many do.
No, he factually does not. This spurious and verbose thought experiment is entirely predicated upon his own self admitted lapses in memory and record keeping ability.
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Elka,
The fact that he’s incorrect in his belief that Glowforge can not change the terms of service does not mean his point is invalid. It also shouldn’t invite many of the comments that he received.
I think that if Glowforge announced tomorrow they would be shutting down in 30 days, or even just degrading their service considerably, there would be a lot of upset people.
I recently had this happen to me with Automatic.com. For those who don’t know, Automatic.com was a great deal. For around $120 you received a device that plugged into the OBD-II port of your vehicle. It tracked GPS, milage, trips, read vehicle error codes, etc.
Like many other companies in the United States, the COVID-19 pandemic adversely impacted their business. They discontinued the service on May 28, 2020.
This is NOT much different than the Glowforge model.
Everyone paid for a device… sort of thinking the device was the product… when in fact the REAL product was the cloud/software platform.
Automatic did offer a very brief period of time for people to “jump through some hoops” and request partial refunds but the end result was a lot of unhappy and abandoned customers.
It always pays to read the fine print… always. I think Jules did a fantastic job of talking it all out so I won’t bother to rehash that.
I’m simply saying that I think Roy brought up a perfectly valid point… even though he agreed (in the original TOS) to be subjected to an essentially never-ending series of “TOS changes”.
I think the vast majority of Glowforge owners never even bothered to read the click-through agreement and many assume the Glowforge IS the product.
Roy’s device NEVER should have been “bricked”. He should have been given notice (per the TOS) and at the very least he should have been given an option to flash his firmware and make his Glowforge unit work independent of the cloud. Back in 2015 that was something Glowforge said they would do. To date, I have not seen that. (I know there is an “Openforge” project or something like that but I don’t believe that’s the official Glowforge firmware offering. - Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.)
-Novak
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I’d like to stop responding (and I will try) but I want to correct things that are incorrect.
You miss the point. The problem here is that Glowforge is making the claim that they can change the terms of service in any way, at any time without recource and that you have already agreed to all future changes. I do not believe this is legal. For a contract to be valid, both sides must understand it. It is not possible for you to understand future changes you have never seen.
This is the first time I’ve seen anything like this. My machine is almost three years old.
Boy, I hope you’re wrong (and I hope you meant $39.95 per year not per month!). But, Glowforge believes that you have already agreed to that. You’ve also agreed that they can…
-
Charge you by hour of use
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Add the Glowforge logo to all your products
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Demand a percentage of the revenue you make from the Glowforge
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Demand a percentage of all your revenue, no matter how you make it.
Yeah, maybe some of these are unlikely, but, if they are allowed to unilaterally change the agreement, all of those, and more, are possible. Will Glowforge clarify and explicitly state what limitations there are on changes that we have supposedly all agreed to in advance?
Some have made the claim that Glowforge had to make these changes because of Glowforge Premium. That’s not true. They could have created a separate agreement.
I agree and I hope you’re right. Glowforge should put it in writing.
Not true. And there’s no reason to get personal. I’ve said repeatedly that I do not believe Glowforge has the legal right to unilaterally change the agreement and claim that we have all agreed in advance to any changes they might make. This isn’t about my memory or whether I have a copy of any prior terms I agreed to (or whether they’ve ever sent me a copy or a confirmation [they haven’t]). This is about their terms, plain and simple.
I sincerely hope all this becomes moot (and I would love for Glowforge to clarify this). I’m putting this out there (and taking crap for it) because there may be a day when people need to say “Hey, remember October 2020 when Roy Leban said …”
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Bringing awareness is really good for those that might not have a clue .
I hope I am wrong also but after what Adobe got away with I have come to understand where the future is headed and it slow but very methodical , Maybe will get in on the old Grand Father Clock rule and not be subjected to some of it.
Thanks Roy.
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It’s remarkable how upset people are that you’ve pointed out a way in which Glowforge is treating its customers poorly. When I buy a refrigerator, I don’t expect to have to pay more to use features 3 years later. The idea that we’re not buying a machine is mental contortion, as the device is enormous and takes up physical space, unlike Adobe CC or other services. We all understand that it’s a hybrid and we all understand terms of service but I’m with Roy that just because it’s in the TOS doesn’t mean it’s good, moral, or even legal. Plenty of companies have been sued successfully for things in their TOS. Unfortunately, most of us are suckers when it comes to these things, myself foremost among them (see my $700 worth of Arlo cameras that I stopped using because their “premium” subscription wasn’t something I wanted to participate in). We paid several thousand dollars for the machine. The cloud has not appreciably changed for me in the way that I use my glowforge since day 1. There’s really no reason I should have to accept new terms to keep using it fully. I understand that some lawyers tried to make sure I had no rights whatsoever except to go pound sand when I first agreed to use the machine if I didn’t like future term changes, but unfortunately, that’s what’s considered being a “good lawyer.” Roy, thanks for pointing this out. I really wish companies would realize that without customers, they can’t exist, and that customers that stuck with you through the rough times (see multiple delays on first delivery for most of us), should be treated with reverence instead of contempt. I don’t think any of us are asking to have our ass kissed - just to be treated honorably by a company we did right by.
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Wow, that was a lot to read.
This appeared to start out talking about if what they did was “legal” and it looks like there are enough loop-holes that the answer is “yes”.
Now it seems to me that a lot of people are just worrying about what a company of a device we love might do? Can we all agree that we love this machine they have sold us? If not, get rid of it. Life is to short worry about things like this. It is good to be prepared, but this seem far beyond that.
This feels like an attack on a company fueled by fear. That may not be the intention of some, but that is how it feels to me. Fear of what “might” come. Fear like this keeps people from leaving their homes. It keeps them on the internet where no one can see them and they are safe to say whatever they want, even if they would never say that to your face.
Fear is ugly. But what can we do about? Many people have many ways to deal with fear. Knowledge is a big way to get around fear. Study the subject. Get to know the people. You more easily trust people you know. Participate in the community.
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I’m not sure anyone is upset, other than roy. I’m mildly irritated by the hyperbole on both sides. This feels like a modern political debate, where nobody is willing to acknowledge any nuance: just take a position, dig in, and turn it to 11.
Also, the argument about cloud services and Glowforge being a connected machine that relies on a backend service and “turns into a brick” without it is just so tiring. It’s been done before and before and before an before and there is nothing new to say. Nothing. You take it or you leave it. Some of us even appreciate it. But regardless of how we feel, local firmware is not a thing and will never be a thing.
As for the rest, well, there are points on both sides. When we buy something that depends on a service to work, we are indeed at risk of losing access to that thing. And there are plenty of examples, including the several cited in this topic, of companies making real dumb moves. It’s not unreasonable to worry, and a Glowforge is a much more substantial investment than a home router. Perhaps Glowforge could do more to offer some reassurance to their customers.
But I draw the line there. I see all kinds of malice attributed to Glowforge that does not have any basis in fact. They could do this, they could do that, they could change the TOS to steal your cat. They have a pretty good track record of not doing any of that. All the stuff that worked when you bought your machine still works, and it even has some new features. All of these strawman arguments about how the terms could change to contain horrible things have no bearing on reality.
Two things which are true: terms of service have to change, and they do change all the time.
I have been on and managed software development teams at a variety of companies. It is absolutely out of the question for Glowforge to let you decline the updated agreement and keep using the old software. The maintenance and support costs for that would be enormous and unsustainable. So as they move the software forward and introduce new features, they are going to have to keep updating the terms. When it was introduced, there was no optional subscription service. There was no library of licensed artwork you could include in your designs. As the service evolves, the terms will have to keep up. Even if it doesn’t, there could be simple things like changing an address. “Just let me decline and keep using my machine” is not a choice in any rational universe.
The fact is, most companies just change the terms when they want and don’t put up an interstitial page. I just did a quick search of my e-mail and found dozens of examples, here are just a few. Note that they all say you accept the new terms if you use the service, otherwise you’re welcome to go away.
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I was gonna add something, but @chris1 just said it better. Doesn’t look like we’re gonna change anyone’s mind here.
Since the weekend is over, I have no doubt that legal will be brought up to speed shortly on Glowforge’s end. It’s their job to look into this, not ours, so let them do it. (Besides, they get paid a lot more than I do.)
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yet your refrigerator doesn’t do anything NEW 3 years later.
your GLOWFORGE DOES!
it has been updated to be much faster. you have new options in the interface.
now does that make subscription “services” any less annoying? Hardly.
but without a recurring revenue stream, most companies cannot survive.
the service contract on my cell sorter is 40k a year at work.
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