Rumors about the Full Spectrum Muse Laser

[MikeH]

Only in the sense that the Glowforges could initially ship with an incomplete capabilities list due to continued S/W development.

That seems to be a given and mostly understandable so long as the essentials are in place at ship time.

New capabilities will be added for years to come.

Assuming that GF stays the same in a corporate sense - that is, they don’t get sold to (or become) an entity that sees huge revenue potential in update and bandwidth fees. Having been moderately burned by something like that recently, it is one of my ongoing concerns. Of course, the new capabilities may still come, but we have to pay more for them. That’s fair to my mind for truly new capabilities beyond what was promised in the original product announcement, here in the forum, or publicly elsewhere but so far as I remember @dan promised that bandwidth for the GF software was supposed to be perpetually free.

[dawime]

There is an assumption in your logic that the hardware as is will be capable to do the pass-through for the pro with the tolerances specified. If that is the case, then its just “software”.
Given the time frame of development, and the lack of pro-specific items, I would say there is a high chance that the hardware needs to be improved (and not just the software). The “improved optics” the pro has should certainly be a hardware difference between the two, and probably integral to making the passthrough feature work

[dawime]

be very safe in assuming that the detailed design and hardware specs for the Pro were finalized quite some time ago.

I will say this as strongly as I can. The most incompetent engineering team on the face of the planet would have long ago completed detailed design. If you believe it is still being worked, RUN FOR THE HILLS NOW!

While the team might have thought they finalized the hardware a long time ago, you can only truly finalize it once you’ve met your requirements. If you need software to prove that, then it should exist somewhere. It would not surprise me given the lack of news on the PRO that what the GF thought they had finished, they still have to rework to make it functional.

You can believe that not to be the case, and you can also believe that you’ll get your units in a few months. There could very well be another arbitrary 6 month delay attached to the schedule (because it sounds good). None of the communication in the past had any measure of justification to think the new deadlines would be met, so I am not sure that people should think that this time they got the time frame right.

I hope it is, because I really really want my GF. But as someone once told me, hoping is a poor planning tool.

[dawime]

Scrum master only if they are using Agile development. I don’t think they have enough people to get a scrum team in place, with the overheads to do a full scaled agile. Maybe some scaled down version, but not the only way to get software done

[Sam]

The “improved optics” the pro has should certainly be a hardware difference between the two, and probably integral to making the passthrough feature work

The “higher quality optics” advertised for the pro is in reference to the beam path and lenses, rather than the cameras, and should have no impact on the passthrough feature.

I agree however that until we have actually seen the hardware performing as intended, we can’t really assume it’s done and further improvements are “just software”. It’s just too easy to miss something critical

[palmercr]

“improved optics”

Has anybody seen a definition of what “improved” means? I can’t remember if I have or not it is so long ago!

I think “improved” means more efficient, so more light gets through giving you a better than a 45/40 intensity improvement.

[rpegg]

You misunderstood. I was commenting on a specific set of words and explained my meaning to the poster far above. His original comment:

A more likely scenario is that they haven’t actually finalized the detailed design and hardware specs for the Pro yet.

I’m not saying when anything will be done or how much re-work may or may not be needed. None of us has any real idea.

Detailed Design means something very specific to all engineering and S/W development teams. So if you ask Glowforge “is Detailed Design done?”, they will accurately answer, Yes. If you ask whether any H/W changes are yet to be completed, they will accurately answer “I don’t know, we’ll have to wait for the results of testing.”

This is not semantics. The correct questions need to be asked, otherwise we continue to get answers that seem misleading to many.

[takitus]

From the specs page. I didn’t even remember this, and not sure what it could be, but I can’t complain too much about upgrades =)
“Higher quality optics provide for more beam power at the head”

[dawime]

I never saw what that was @palmercr, which is why I did not order a PRO. the 40-45W, and improved optics for me did not justify the price differential, and I did not have a need for the passthrough feature. The added runtime given the active cooling also was never quantified, so I decided to pass on it.

[palmercr]

I got the pro for the pass through because I don’t have room for a bigger laser but at the time I needed to cut acrylic bigger than 12", now 11.5".

I also want to cut 10mm thick Delrin, so need the doubled sided cuts. If those are still years away or leave ugly seam lines I might downgrade to the basic. I would need to see those things demonstrated before committing to shipment because I don’t have blind faith. It would be a bad move to lose the ability of a refund before seeing all the advertised features working. Since my order is supposed to be shipped by July I just can’t see it happening.

[dawime]

I have no doubt the team has finalized the requirements for the pro.
Usually to claim that you have completed the detailed design it means you can prove that you have met your requirements. To say that you have completed the detailed design but don’t know if changes are coming means you have not completed your design (because how else would you prove you are meeting your requirements?)

Things like reliability, and gauge R&R to prove out your manufacturability could come after, and you may find something there that requires a design change, but if that is the case, it means you did not understand your sources of variability (be it electrical or mechanical), and you had gaps in your design implementation.

But like all discussions of this nature in this forum, they are all speculation given that the updates we get are very light on specifics that get you a feel good that something huge isn’t lurking still in the deep waiting to bite you.

[dawime]

@palmercr, I would want to see the same given what you wanted to use the unit for. Its a waiting game for everyone, and it is troublesome that 1 1/2 years into the announcement of sales none of those features have been demonstrated.

[B_and_D_T]

The continuing lack of Pro level feature demos might be a little less troublesome if you remember a couple of key facts that can be deduced from reading Dan’s earlier posts throughout the forums.
First off, we know they were concentrating on basic functionality first, since that is common to both types. This means that they have at best only recently started developing and testing the Pro – specific features. It is logically clear that these Pro specific features will depend heavily on the head camera for their accuracy, and no doubt some of the basic functionality needs that too. If they have not got the software for the head camera dialed in perfectly yet, it stands to reason that the Pro functionality will not work properly yet either.
Secondly, Dan has repeatedly referred to their reluctance to show pictures of testing that is nowhere near ready for prime time, due to the permanence of the Internet and the likelihood that these early testing photos would be cited years from now as proof that it does not work.
While these two facts by no means prove that the Glowforge team are already developing and testing the Pro features, they do explain why none of those Pro features have been demonstrated to us yet even if they are already being tested.

[palmercr]

So if GF offer to ship you a pro in July, with no evidence it does any more than the basic, would you say yes?

[dan]

Has anybody seen a definition of what “improved” means? I can’t remember if I have or not it is so long ago!

I think “improved” means more efficient, so more light gets through giving you a better than a 45/40 intensity improvement.

Exactly correct.

[dawime]

The points you make are all valid. Without knowing how close it actually is, it could be another 6-12 months of software development to get the Pro completed after the basic is done, or it could be 2 weeks.

If it was closer to weeks in orders of magnitude for completion, I am sure we would have seen some demos by now.

[B_and_D_T]

While I can’t imagine we still won’t have any evidence 6 months hence, it would definitely make me think about it a bit. And @dan and crew are no doubt keenly aware that potentially thousands of pro buyers would reconsider without any evidence, so my money’s on the pro features getting serious attention by the developers very soon.

[Scott.Burns]

so my money’s on the pro features getting serious attention by the developers very soon

I have a strong suspicion that the developers are paying serious attention to the Pro right now, and are perhaps panicking a bit too. /speculation

[shodanime]

I am going to back to the muse topic. I order the GF Pro cant wait to get it. But i am thanking about getting the Muse just because of the rotary attachment. One of my problems I have with the muse is the lack of information/ forums for the muse laser. I cant seem to find any videos or examples besides their promo video and the tested video for this laser cutter.

[dpmarkman]

@jamesdhatch they have said that they are shipping at the same time, however they have not shown any units openly that have the features of the Pro. They had beta basic units on the forums and still announced two delays (June moved to December, and Dec moved to July). Since there have not been any open posts about Pro features/units, it leads me to develop some scepticism about both basic and pro units shipping concurrently. @Dan has the benefit of my doubt, but some comments/evidence about Pro features/units in their office or in the wild would be nice. I am on the same page as @MikeH.