… Electrocute a lot or a little?
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@erin I’m OOL, and really trying not to add to the noise today … but have to stop and thank you for making me laugh: Thank you!
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There are simple safety features that can be built into any machine that deals with hazardous/high voltages (or any hazard). Liability is not really something to worry about with the proper engineering. - Rich
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Dead.
There are two circuits in play - a house (mains) voltage of 120V (or 240V in Europe) which can be but is not generally fatal. That’s the stuff coming out of the wall socket. It powers all of the motors, lights, etc. \
Then there’s the High Voltage circuit. That’s the one that gets stepped up to 15-25,000V. That’s what it takes to get the CO2 to lase.
There are safe ways to deal with it as all other laser manufacturers have demonstrated but just dropping a screwdriver in there could kill you too.
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Spot on
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Well @m_raynsford is still alive so I’m assuming more than a 9 volt, less than and AED. https://community.glowforge.com/t/tube-replacement-game-changer-for-overseas-buyers/6372/13?u=jamie
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Yeah, that’s probably an unacceptable amount of risk for someone who can’t remember the screwdriver names.
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Who would engineer the ability of someone to work on the thing with the high voltage on?!! Who would engineer the high voltage power supply or conductors with bare wires or connectors to drop a screw driver on to?!! Lets get real, no manufacturer of a consumer product has done this and passed any consumer inspection services. GF is anything but hap-hazard in their engineering of your laser system. - Rich
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The problem here is things like capacitors. They store electricity until released or it dissipates over time, so even after disconnecting power, there may still be deadly amounts of power stored in capacitors that can be discharged.
Check out videos on Microwave Capacitor Discharge, and similar high power devices.
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Similar to working on an old CRT TV or Microwave Oven with large capacitors and high power. Untrained people shouldn’t do it. A lot of us can, a lot of folks shouldn’t.
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Um. Yes it has been done and is still being done. Open up most low-end (<$25,000) lasers and look inside. Run away from any of the <$5,000 Chinese lasers.
I have an LS600h that has a hybrid drive train in addition to the dino juice motor. Most everything for the electrical for the hybrid drive is separate and shielded but it’s also labeled with big “DON’T FREAKIN TOUCH THIS STUFF NIMROD!” labels. But despite the labels I can pop a cover off a junction and short terminals.
My old E350 had the same thing for the secondary braking control circuit (separate battery so if the main car battery died I’d still have brakes). That battery and lots of car circuitry was still live when the rest of the car was dead as a rock.
For the laser, high voltage capacitors store up and retain voltage for a decent amount of time. It’s required in order to produce the step-up. Just physics. Can they be potted so you can’t get a screwdriver in there? Maybe. But how much of an idiot is on the other side of the handle.
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Yes, I understand that (I think it was me that quoted that) & think that shipment + 12 months is ridiculous but that was in response to people near their offices driving their glowforges to the factory for replacement rather than shipping them.
My post here is my “None of the above - I’ll elaborate below” vote stating my opinion that shipping to the factory as well as asy further delays are both unacceptable to me. In my opinion they must come up with a solution that does not involve shipping the entire unit prior to the current projected shipping deadline.
Just speaking from experience, 277v hurts Really Really BAD. then you spend the rest of the day feeling like you are going to puke and your nerves are shot.
Fortunately I haven’t done 480v.
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I work safety for HV systems everyday. Your analogy is not really like it is for modern laser power supplies. The rule is that there be that the energy storage capacitors have bleed down resistors that bleed the system down to 30 volts or less in the time it takes to access the circuit. Usually this is two minutes or less depending on the system. Even if the power supply were on (it shouldn’t be able to energize if you can access it) you shouldn’t be able to touch any of the HV conductors. I’ll let who ever have the last word on this, I’m tired now. - Rich
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Coolant connections could be luer lock (push and twist) or something the 1/4-28 threaded fittings used on HPLC. The last sort are made from PEEK which tough, temperature stable and inert. There are options for the coolant too tbh.
Agreed.
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Thanks. So, in reality, this issue is only an expectation of those of us in the forums. A large part of the purchasing base will not have had this expectation as they don’t frequent the forums.
It is unfortunate that it was stated here as a factor that in fact cant’ happen at this point. It speaks strongly to not sharing information with the buyers of the unit until it is released and shipping.
On the one hand we have unprecedented access to the inner workings of the company during the creation of the machine, and on the other we have expectations dashed when certain things they were planning that we were told about don’t pan out.
All in all, most companies would share nothing more than what is on their web site and periodic updates about release and shipping dates. No pre-release and beta test information, no features being worked on and possibly developed, no progress reports on cameras, power supplies, tube malfunctions, materials results, etc. Just exactly what they have made publicly available on the web site, and the rest can come out once the machines are shipping
So, it is quite a conundrum. Do they continue to share with us on this level and risk further backlash and disappointment, or stop sharing anything further until such time as the machines are going out the door? I for one would be very gun shy about saying anything further other than 'Hey, the basic units are now shipping and the Pro models will begin_____________". No answering questions about features not mentioned in the press releases and the web site. No end-user contact about what may or may not be possible. To quote Jack Webb. “Just the facts, ma’am.”
The instantaneous nature of social media is such that any other course can lead to a very harsh and unforgiving backlash, as these forums prove.
I, for one, am still looking forward to my Glowforge, and I expect it to be and do exactly what it is and does when it arrives on my doorstep. Everything else up to that is just speculation.
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In general, I think Dan has been pretty cautious about not providing information on something he wasn’t certain would be a part of the final product. Of course, everything is up for change until units ship, but I’ve seen him say he wasn’t willing to comment on things he couldn’t guarantee plenty of times. It’s just unfortunate that this was one he had to go back on since it has such a big financial impact for so many people.
I know it must be a rough day for him and his team and I feel for them. It’s a bad day for a lot of the customers, too, especially the international customers. It just sucks all around.
Regardless, I am excited for my machine, even if the worst case scenario of having to mail the machine in for tube replacement every couple of years ends up being the final solution. Even with the downtime and cost to do so, the amount of time I will save on projects because the Glowforge is so user friendly (by all reports) will be enough to offset it. I mostly hope they come up with another solution for those customers that find this issue to be a deal-breaker.
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Absolutely continue. It gives them the opportunity before they have 10,000 units in trucks to solve a potentially explosive problem. If they wait until it hits your house and then have 5,0000 people calling to bitch it’s too late. Sharing the info now and hearing those 5,000 people (or a pro-rata share based on forum users vs the overall pre-purchase population) before they’ve got all those machines in flight provides a window to success. They can chose not to avail themselves of that but it’s there.
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I understand that – absolutely. I think that is the job of beta testers, and in this instance, the very cool position of pre-releaser. Those folks – professionals, industry bloggers, seasoned laser users, novices – work through all that stuff, find the bugs, the problems, the successes, what works, what doesn’t, what the machine will be in the end. They are really the ones who will help guide the company to success.
The rest of us are just watching from the sidelines. We “Monday-morning-quarterback” and comment from the outside looking in, not part of the team playing the game. To use the sports analogy, could you imagine a coach announcing his next play to the audience in the stands and at home, and then have it not work as he/she intended?
I’m guessing it kind of feels like this tube issue right about now.