Two questions

Sure, and I was obviously showing a simplification, but it doesn’t change the concept. If you turn on “Full Power”, the top end goes higher. Call it 110 or something. Maybe there’s nothing between 100 and 110, it’s pretty easy to account for that either way.

Again, correct but irrelevant to the point I’m making. I’m not trying to describe exactly how the power is modulated. Without inside information or Glowforge publishing the curves, I can’t do that. This is a simplified model for the purpose of explaining what Precision Power and Min Power do, how they relate to the range of grayscale values in the source image, and how there’s special handling for white. The only thing that “power is not linear” changes about this is the shape of the ramp from min to max. That’s a whole separate discussion, and one I care a lot less about.

I’m having a lot of trouble parsing this. My best guess at what you’re saying is that my scale is incorrect in the following way: since 255 has been stolen away from us to represent transparent, everything should be shifted down such that 254 is the whitest white and not, as I wrote, “Gray 254 (almost white)”. That’s a valid, but different interpretation of the words. I was referring specifically to the representation of 8-bit grayscale in the source file, independent of Glowforge’s mapping. In Photoshop or Illustrator or whatever, if you have an 8-bit grayscale image, 255 is white and 254 is very light gray.

You may have noted that in my formula, it’s effectively impossible to get exactly Min pews. Take the second example: I put 10 in the Min box, but the actual range is 100 down to 10.4. 255 gray would map to 10 pews, but the rule for “white is transparent” stomps on that value and clamps it to 0. So you can’t hit exactly 10 pews. As has been noted by experts in the field, there are three unsolved problems in computer science: naming things and off-by-one errors. Knowing how programmers think and how the code is likely to be implemented, I think my formula is probably close to the one used, and in the grand scheme of things it’s not important.

If that’s what you’re referring to, then there is of course a trivial change to make it work the way you’re describing. Perhaps the programmer who implemented this was thinking about it that way and came up with (254-Gray)*((Power-Min)/254)+Min instead. Table 2 would come out like this:

Gray 0 (black)          -> 100.0 pews [math: (254-0)*(90/254)+10]
Gray 1 (almost black)   ->  99.6 pews [math: (254-1)*(90/254)+10]
Gray 2                  ->  99.3 pews [math: (254-2)*(90/254)+10]
[...]
Gray 128 (midpoint)     ->  54.6 pews [math: (254-128)*(90/254)+10]
[...]
Gray 253 (almost white) ->  10.4 pews [math: (254-254)*(90/254)+10]
Gray 254 (white)        ->  10.0 pews [math: (254-254)*(90/254)+10]
Gray 255 (transparent)  ->     0 pews [no math, white is always ignored]

It’s a very subtle difference. In fact, it’s so subtle that Table 3 doesn’t even change, if you keep it to one decimal place. (You can do your own math now, I’m tired.)

If there was some other point you were making, it’s lost on me.

Let’s not. I deliberately kept my examples to the actual numbers used in the computer. There are no negatives or infinities in either the PNG-8 scale or the Glowforge pew scale. The way I choose to represent white is by saying “off”, “ignored”, or “0 pews”, which all mean the same thing. No angry pixies come out of the laser when your file is white (255) because (all together now) white represents transparent.

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So I think we’re really on the same page. Perhaps different paragraphs, but the same page. And that’s good enough for me! :slight_smile:

But regarding the 0 = white. In reality it’s 0 pews. But according to the Glowforge scale, white is not represented at all. It’s not in the scale. It’s not in the 0-Full range. In the actual Glowforge scale, 0 = ~254 (light gray) and Full represents Black (0), with 253-1 throughout the rest of the scale. What makes this significant is that if I change min, I’m not affecting white. White will always be white because it’s outside of the scale. It will never get even slightly darker no matter how I affect the scale. And this is not how typical design/editing software works. So it’s not intuitive.

I think any further quibbling over whether “white is outside the scale” or “white = 0, where 0 means laser off” is more philosophy than anything else. What you said there is what people need to know. And it’s much more concise than my attempt to settle the matter with charts and graphs. I’m not the first to make this mistake, I guess.

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Didn’t mean to give that impression. Speaking from my side, I certainly wasn’t quibbling. Simply trying to ensure I have a firm grasp of what’s really happening. Because working with grayscale images for so many decades, this, like I said, just isn’t intuitive. At least not to me.

But I think you and I are, generally, in agreement as to how this works.

:roll_eyes: (look what I’ve gone and done now. And to think that I thought my questions were so innocently simple…)

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We’re way beyond 10 answers, this is normal :smiley:

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How do we know this? Apart from discontinuity between 100 and full, I think 0-100 is probably linear. It is done with PWM. Not sure if the laser actually pulses on an off at 1.25kHz or if it is filtered to produce a varying analogue value to modulate the current.

It might not have a linear effect on the material but that will be material dependent.

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If this is true, it would mean two things—both of which could be tested.

  1. Since the precision power range is meant to be the same on both Pro and Basic, it means that (at least on Pro) there is a significant power jump between black (0) and almost black (1) in your Model.
  2. Engravings would be very different on Pro vs Basic where full black was used.

I recall when they first debuted Precision power, the UI didn’t have the Full option, and the step from 99-100 was that large difference.

If you can select Full on the power setting for an engraving, then #2 is going to be the case—different results on Basic vs Pro. But I would still expect the pew values to ramp continuously without any big jumps, maybe from min pews to 110 pews…

But I don’t yet have a (working) laser, so my expectations are just guesses.

I recall this from previous posts on this forum.

Okay. Could be.

I’m so glad you asked this Xabbes! I have been trying to understand this “min power” thing for awhile. I just always leave it at 0 since we haven’t had any explanation of it from GF. (They really should explain these things.)

I read the first few comments and thought I understood and then the later posts got a bit deep :slight_smile: Can someone in the know confirm if this is still how it works? Is it true that white gets no power regardless and the lightest grey in the image gets whatever minimum power you set it to?

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I think the impression of non-linearity of the power ‘slider’ was due to the non-linear response of the material to the linear application of power. Back in June palmercr said he thought the power ‘slider’ was linear:

It seems the recently reverse-engineered puls file shows the ‘slider’ to be linear as well.

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One thing to note here, if you look at proofgrade settings GF may not explain what these are or how to use them, but they use them in their settings, so we should likely experiment a bit more with them.

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Okay, here’s an authoritative answer to min power and mapping to transparent or white (and grays). :slightly_smiling_face:

I setup a file with 4 blocks of color - transparent, white, 50% gray and black. Equivalent to nulls for RGB values, 255/255/255, 128/128/128 and 0/0/0 respectively.

Then I converted to a grayscale bitmap.

The purple box shows that there is both a transparent block and a white one. I deleted the purple box and sent it to the GFUI.

I set the engrave to Vary Power, 225LPI, 0 Min power, 100 Precision power, 1000 speed. Set the text to PG engrave “graphic”.

Both the transparent & white got 0 pew pews. I know this because the head never moved past the 50% block until it engraved the text.

So then I set it to 10% for min power, left the rest the same, turned off the “0 Min” text, turned on “10 Min” and ran another set. Still no pew pew action on anything to the left of the 50% gray box.

Then I set it to “50 Min”, turned off the “10 min” text and turned on the “50 min” text to engrave. Again no pew pew for either the white or transparent.

Dropped a cut box on the work space and cut them out.

Peeled off the masking and this is what they look like. (Ignore the non-rectangular cuts and other artifacts of prior jobs - using scrap PG Draftboard.)

These do show that as the min is increased the 50% gray box gets darker which supports the conjecture above that the dynamic range is compressed as the min is increased.

To really prove that, I did one more run using 99 as the min power. I entered 100 but the GFUI changed it to 99. Didn’t bother weeding it.

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Well done.

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I can understand that and I agree to an extent. But when it’s a user setting that we control, we shouldn’t be left guessing at what it’s for or how it works. I hate using expensive material just to try and figure out how a feature they offered us works.

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I understand now!

74670505

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Thank you, Jim! THIS I get! I felt a bit dense with what was written before, though I greatly appreciate the vast knowledge that was laid out here. As @kittski said…it got a bit deep. I guess I’m more of a visual learner. Much appreciated! :grinning:

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Yes, sista!

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LOL, read this and my brain immediately turned it in to

:musical_score: Sista @kittski, :musical_score:
Oh the time has come
And you know that you’re the only one…

Yeah, it’s been a long day. I might be a bit punchy.

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:slightly_smiling_face: sometimes pictures help.

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