You need to buy a Formlabs 3, they cost way less than the GF, and they perform very well. I have had only about four failed prints in about 5 years, and never had to return the machine to the factory for repairs 
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Plus, a Formlabs IS a real Laser 3D printer, not like the GF that IS a laser cutter, but identifies herself as a 3D laser printer 
Your assumptions about “older users” is not accurate and I wonder about the source of that information. I was part of the presale, purchasing in 2015 and receiving my machine in 2017. I did not talk to real people that were developing the machine. I did not get a replacement or upgrade for little money of for free. Perhaps there have been some perks, but Glowforge had my money for two years before I had a machine, so that is something that newer users didn’t experience.
Lawyers read the warranty. Lawyers wrote the warranty. You might think you know what a disgruntled lawyer owner would do, but I think you are wrong.
I am glad you are satisfied with your Formlabs IS.
Mi source is this forum.
Yeah, maybe then there are more categories of users, not only two. I have read tons of posts and I’ve seen some posts of ppl that got replacements of old units with new ones, and upgrades for free.
BTW, I’m selling my brand new “new-refurbished” GF Pro that received today, for only $3,500, it is still in the 90 days warranty period, more than 50% discount of list price!
Yeah, well, I think I’m right. You can look for what disgruntled lawyer’s lawsuits have filed in the past, and you may change your opinion.
But granted I could be wrong. Opposed to facts, opinions can be right, wrong or in between. That’s the fun of discussing.
I am! I love my Formlabs SSL 3D printer.
Nothing to do with a laser cuter btw. Just sharing with @rbtdanforth my experience as a satisfied 3D printer user, since he mentioned that his 3D printer doesn’t work very well. Or at least that’s what I understood.
Links? Because I’m one of the crowdfunders too, and what @dklgood says is correct.
We did have user support via this forum (as an alternative to email) for a while, but that was available to everyone, not just us. We didn’t get to talk to any developers. We got the same software upgrades everyone else gets, and we only got free replacements during our warranty period or when damage occurred while using PG materials.
In short: Your information is wrong.
the primary advantage the original crowdfunders have is that we got more interaction with Dan and the team before the actual machine was released in the wild. he was more active on the forum back then. well, that and the initial cost, but we “lent” that money for 2+ years for that privilege, so it’s not quite as amazing as it seems. and we did a lot of the initial testing, when there were no real settings or user groups sharing things.
I don’t know about crowfounders in particular. I’m talking about early users in general, and I believe they had a better deal than new owners. Just a few examples below:
Older users had the chance to interact with GF ppl, not generic emails that always change the name. rbtdanforth mentions that he had Zoom interactions in this very post, above. Alas, you guys could interact with Dan Shapiro, the CEO (Watch Brad Feld & Dan Shapiro print something).
Or when ppl from GF picked up issues posted in the forum?, as Rita did in this post? (Another Print load error).
As per replacement and upgrades for little money or free, as I understand, they have a discounted price for Premium access. Isn’t that correct?
Also, if you got an early basic machine for $1,995, that worked great for three years (some even 5?) then you need to replace the tube, for only $499 you will get a refurbished Plus as the basic is discontinued. That is a great deal!
Not saying it is unfair; old users made an early bet, GF was a new company, and the risks were high.
My conclusions could be biased, and may be wrong, but my info is not.
In the end, I’m just trying to make sense of why it seems to be two types of users in the forum: those super happy and loyal to GF (they all seem to be always the same GF veterans). On the other hand, those (like me) have had several repeated issues with the machine.
It has been a rollercoaster; while it works, I’m happy with GF, but that lasts just a few months, then it breaks, I need a replacement, and the cycle starts again. 4 machines in 2 years is, in my book, too much for such an expensive machine.
BTW, all refurbished machines I have gotten are old machines. I have NEVER had a new machine. An old user certainly got a new machine, and if it lasted 3 or 5 years with no issue, it was of better quality than all I have gotten. That is totally anecdotal, but I understand they changed manufacturing companies (as per old posts in the forum), which may have affected the quality. I don’t know what it is, but I know my machines have been unreliable. I know @Deleted did great work documenting issues; that’s how I found my issues were already known.
Yeah, totally get it!
I’m not saying it is unfair. It was a bet and a risk you took. You deserve to have whatever perks you guys got. Nothing against that; all the opposite, you allowed the machine to become what it is. The company owes you a lot.
I may have phrased it as if I’m against the Glowforge Orignal Gangsters (ha), but I’m not. I’m grateful as (most) OGs have come to help me when I need help and encouragement.
As mentioned in a post above, I’m trying to make sense of some users’ high loyalty and happiness with GF. I believe the “loyal users” correlate to the time they jumped into GF. My theory could be wrong, but that’s what I believe so far.
Not trying to pick a fight here, but in this post you are talking about how unreliable you think Glowforges are, and in another post you want nearly $3500 for a machine with a 90 day warranty. You seem to be sabotaging yourself.
I’m sorry you’ve had unreliable machines, that stinks.
In general my machines have been very durable and performed really well. I’ve had a maintenance issue or two but I’ve found the machine to be a solid value to me.
That’s why I’m happy with my Glowforge. It works well and I like the community.
I don’t know how I’d react if I had one support failure after another, I’d probably be upset just like you are… but it’s gone well, so I’m not.
I know humans are full of contradictions. And it happens that I’m very, very human
See, I cannot hide, in good conscience, what I think of GF reliability. I know, I’m a bad salesman!
However, if there is anyone who, regardless of what I believe about GF and still wants to buy them, that one person most probably is in this forum because here there are people that have had very different experiences than mine.
Maybe one lucky owner of an original Glowforge basic that has been working flawlessly for three or maybe five years and wants to upgrade to a Glowforge PRO before their machine dies? Or maybe someone who wants to add a new-refurbished PRO to their current Glowforge farm?
Regarding price, well, Glowforge sells the refurbished at $6,799. They bought my working one (it only has the lid detached!), for $5,344. Just see the invoice I paid. I’m posting it below. So, it is not true that it cost me less than $3,500.
As per warranty, Glowforge’s warranty for this new-refurbished is 90 days.
So, I’m offering the exact same machine glowforge sold me and I received today, but for less than half the price, that is a heck of a deal!, and I believe an informed buyer would appreciate it.
Of course, you don’t think that way, and that is all right. I bet some one there will see it as a good opportuinity to upgrade.
However, if there is not a buyer, well, I won’t stress too much because the GF will probably fail within 90 days, and I’ll get another new-refurbished, and so, and so, at infinitum, until eventually one doesn’t fail, or someone buys it .
Another possibility is to use it to experiment with hacks on it. We’ll see what happens.
PS. sorry to repeat “new-refurbished” over and over, but I have fun writing it, that’s just whimsical!.
Thanks, man!
You have no idea how envious I am of every user who has had no issues at all with their Glowforge.
I’m genuinely curious: why is there such a disparity in experiences? What are the odds that several users receive repeatedly faulty machines? (Don’t make me post the links; I know you’ve read those posts).
Actually, I know how to estimate those odds. Some owners have received more than four faulty units! Let me work it out and get back to you. 
I think you’re audience here is not the audience you are seeking. I think the audience you are seeking may be more easily found on social media platforms maybe?
I’m sorry you are unhappy. I hope you find what makes you happy. (I mean that sincerely, with zero sarcasm. It sucks when you invest in something you aren’t happy with.) Good luck!
Let's start estimating the probability of a single user receiving repeated faulted machines; we need to define some parameters and assumptions:
Using the binomial probability formula, the probability of receiving k faulted machines out of n total machines is:
P(X=k) = (n choose k) × Pfk × (1-Pf)n-k
However, in my case, I've received faulty machines every single time, so k = n. Thus, the formula becomes:
P(X=n) = Pfn
If we knew the actual probability Pf (i.e., the fraction of machines that are faulty), we could calculate this directly. Lets assume a high number, say 10% of all machines are faulty (Pf=0.10), and I've received 4 defective machines in a row:
P(X=4) = 0.104 = 0.0001 = 0.01%
This means there's a 0.01% chance of receiving 4 defective machines in a row if 10% of all machines are faulty.
However, there's a nuance: The chance of several users experiencing the same repeated issues suggests that the probability isn't just random bad luck. If multiple users are consistently receiving faulty units, Pf might be higher than estimated, there could be systemic issues in certain batches, or the way the refurbished units are handled might be problematic.
To thoroughly assess the situation, we can estimate now the case for multiple users
Four users (j=4) each receiving four faulty machines in a row (n=4).
All users get machines from the same pool of refurbished machines, and the probability of getting a faulty machine remains constant across all picks.
The probability that a single user gets four faulty machines in a row is:
P1 = Pf4
The probability that four users each get four faulty machines in a row is the fourth power of P1:
Pk = (Pf4)4 = Pf16
Now, let's solve for Pf in the equation Pk = Pf16 given a specific Pk.
For simplicity, let's use the probability we got for one single user in the initial calculations above, Pk = 0.0001 (0.01% chance that all four users would get four faulty machines in a row). Then,
0.0001 = Pf16
To solve for Pf, take the 16th root of both sides:
Pf = 0.00011/16
Calculating this value, Pf ≈ 0.38 or 38%.
This means that for there to be a 0.01% chance of four users each receiving four faulty machines consecutively from the pool, approximately 38% of the refurbished machines in that pool would need to be faulty, that this a lot!
Of course, we need to keep in mind that this is a simplified model and the actual probability can be influenced by various factors. However, this gives a basic understanding of how high the faulty rate needs to be, in order to observe such a number of repeated faulty machines by several users under the defined assumptions.
Thank you, @trually. I genuinely value your insight. At times, I feel like I’m seeking a form of group therapy here.
I have no intention of broadly criticizing Glowforge on social media or creating negative content about them on platforms like YouTube, FB or IG. My hope was to express my feelings and frustrations in a community where others can truly empathize — those who understand the emotional and financial investment of purchasing such a machine, dedicating time, building expectations, and then facing disappointment.
It becomes even more challenging when I come across comments that seem to dismiss the very real frustrations that some of us face. Regardless of the percentage of users experiencing issues (and I’ve tried to estimate this), the fact remains: there are owners out there who’ve had multiple issues. Their experiences and feelings are valid. Fortunately, these kinds of comments are not the rule but the exception.
I have what is perhaps a weird position. I am either the oldest of the new people or the newest of the oldest. Instead of waiting over 2 years for my machine I waited for six months and paid more that the others did. That first machine died of my own stupidity within the first year and I got it replaced at no cost.
The replacement was indistinguishable from new. However, there had been early on a redesign of the exhaust and as best as I can tell those who had the older exhaust, have the older design in the refurbs they receive. The replacement worked fine for several years until one day it didn’t, and I paid for a refurb, that again was indistinguishable from new but still had the older exhaust. That machine did not even need to be calibrated.
Over the years I have seen complaints often of the same issue repeating over several machines. I suspect that many machines get replaced where the error was not in the machine, and many more (particularly during Covid), when a bad batch of some part (like rubber wheels) did not get caught during production and has to flow through the refurb system to wash out.
By the time the machines get to the refurb desk those issues are well known and double checked before the refurb leaves the plant. In this way my experience has been that the refurbs are more reliable than those brand new, and my two replacements have each worked better than the one before.
But clearly this can’t be the case or they’d be out of business — support costs would eat them up, both financially and in terms of labor allocation. They’ve got something like 100k units out there, if 38% of people had issues with returns we’d see a great deal more of these types of complaints. Right? Seems right to me.
Like you said your model is too basic to the point of being unpublishable. Just too many assumptions even if you’re right. You were right to put that disclaimer on it but I think you understated the number of guesses you’re making.
Edit: I’m also making a lot of guesses. Neither of us knows what we’re talking about with any certainty. Uninformed high five!
And here are the people beyond disappointed with their Formlabs machine and suggesting there should be a class action lawsuit.
Everything has bad reviews. Very few people come to online forums to post “I bought this thing and it works normally and I have nothing to say.” We have no way to know how common your bad experience is, as a fraction of all Glowforge owners. Statistically, half of us are below average.
[Edit] I wrote this before seeing your math post. I’m not going to critique the calculation as I don’t have the expertise, but it seems implausible. Rare events happen, and (in absolute terms) they happen more often with a larger sample size. I don’t see how your observation that there exist four users who received four faulty machines can correctly lead to the conclusion that 38% of refurbs are defective. If they only sold 16, it would be 100%, and if they sold 16 million, it would not take a 100% failure rate for four people to be unlucky. So my conclusion is that any such calculation needs the size of the pool as one of the variables.
Yes, as I mentioned we used to get tech support via this forum. Back then, posting in the Support area (now renamed Community Support) opened a support ticket, and that’s why Rita responded. Now there’s the Discord server where GF staff are often present. There’s also phone support available.
Other perks you’ve mentioned actually are linked to forum participation rather than longevity of ownership. Correlation <> causation, as they say.
Dan has mentioned in the past that the failure rate is in the low single digits. With hundreds of thousands of machines out there, that’s still a significant number of affected customers, and they are the ones most likely to be on social media complaining, which easily leads to a skewed impression of what’s happening.
Well, you are right, not 38% of the machines sold are faulty, and not 30% of ppl are having issues.
What I estimated was that 38% of the pool of the refurbished could be at fault. And we can estimate that number as well:
If we assume that most people have no issues, then only a very few numbers had to get a refurbished one, say, only 1% of them? That makes only 1,000 machines returned. Out of that, only 38% of those would be at fault, that is 380. That is a very low number and totally manageable.
Regarding finances, not all refurbished are for free, I just paid for mine. I don’t think they make their profits from refurbished, but I don’t think they are losing money either. But this is totally an speculation and I could be very wrong.
Actually, the model is simplified, but it is a solid one. The few assumptions are actually in favor of Glowforge, not against it.
The most important premise is that if you are getting a glowforge at random from a pool of refurbished machines if 90% of them were ok, then the probability of you having a bad one should be only 10%. But if you get one faulty one, your second is at fault, and then your third and fourth, are not OK, then the percentage of faulty ones in the pool from where you are receiving your replacement is higher than 10%. And we know how to calculate that percentage.
Even more, if the same situation happens to more than one user, that percentage of faulty machines has to grow even more. And we know how to calculate that percentage as well. And I did.
In the end, either the percentage of faulty machines within the pool of refurbished is high, or the assignments or glowforge are not at random.
Since I believe Glowforge is not sending me faulty machines on purpose, then the only plausible conclusion is that the pool of refurbished from where I’m getting my replacements has a high percentage of faulty machines.
Sure thing, we don’t know the actual numbers, but we can accurately calculate the percentages.
high five back! 
I think that @geek2nurse has it correct. First, by far the most significant number of faulty machines are due to rough handling in shipping. The packing system has improved considerably since the beginning, but idiot-proof is a fantasy. I have yet to see the big image of “Fragile” and “This-Side-Up” paid any attention to. In one case flipping it end over end instead of lifting and carrying it.
In the case of new owners the same “idiot proof” applies. Here I confess to being one of those idiots. I thought magnets were an obvious choice to hold material in place and did not consider what a strong magnetic field would do to spinning fans or other electronic equipment moving quickly through it. Liquids running about on circuit boards affect reliability as well.
For a long time, the black cable would break or mess up if you lifted the lid too far. Now that piece is a lot longer, but many folk still have the original and just don’t lift the lid that far. Other design issues will still exist like the faulty wheels, or bad glue, but the numbers will be a lot less than you are thinking.
