Schedule update (December '16)

Hi Dan and Team,
It’s a shame that the delays are happening, must be hard all around. I’m hanging tight; fortunately I don’t have a business need hanging on my Glowforge, so it’s just a delay in fun, which I’d be silly to complain about. I’ll take you at your word that the product quality is the primary driver here, and so the delay will mean a better experience than it comes.
Fingers are crossed for you, and us. Looking forward to getting it when I do.
Jac

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Dude, I think I love you!

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I’m with ya, Jac. Delays are just delays. I’m not worried. I’ll still consider it money well-spent when I get this delightful device.

Cheers to you, Jac! Live long and prosper!

  • Tom
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Does anybody know if there were many cancellations after the last status update? I was expecting loads of people writing on CAPS LOCK saying how they are canceling.

I just hope its worth its waiting gold! I have confidence, but I’m scared of a “we let you down” email again

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It’s impossible to know how many. There have been some, for sure. I don’t doubt that those numbers will be kept confidential.

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Oh god…T&Cs again… You realize that banging on that key is not going to get you anywhere? Legally there is nothing wrong. Someone else had a post about the AG a few days ago, but I am not sure that would apply given that glowforge is still offering to refund those unhappy with the delays.

@memei isnt upset that he wants the cheap price with no risk attached. He did that when he did his pre-order. What he wants is some reciprocity from the glowforge team to basically “put the money where their mouth is”. Build confidence back. Now, there are many ways that I believe that could be accomplished, and I agree that this particular suggestion is a complicated one to implement and distracting at this point.

What people are upset about primarily are the expectations that are set then not met. There can be no denying the schedule for delivery was overly optimistic and not a realistic one. When things delay, people want to know why. When new expectations are set, and then not met, people get upset again. Trying to point out that legally there is nothing wrong misses the point completely, and will not change anyone’s mind. If anything, it will just inflame things further.

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[quote=“dawime, post:539, topic:3657”]
Oh god…T&Cs again… [/quote]
One thing i have always found fascinating is how people seem to have a deep appreciation of the Law when it suits them, but completely ignore it or down-grade it when it works against their beliefs.
Yes, you are vexed, we get it… considering the amount of near copy-pasta level angst since the latest delay was announced even Helen Keller would be rolling in her grave with sympathy.

But there is a reason why i post the T&C again… because THAT is what you/we signed up for…

  • You dont like it? That is irrelevant.
  • You dont think the T&C apply to you or are as important as your disappointment? That is irrelevant.
  • You read those T&C and do not respect @Dan for making the effort he is to reach out to the community? That is baffling.

Those same T&C which you rail against but somehow have failed to read make it quite clear how much responsibility Glowforge have to “Build confidence back.”

1. Pre-Order and Acceptance. Completed pre-orders are subject to Glowforge’s acceptance and may be rejected at any time and for any reason at Glowforge’s discretion.

We are OFFERED the opportunity to get early-uptake of the Glowforge, we are Consumers of a Product in development, we are NOT backers, NOT stakeholders, we are not even (any longer at least) the main source of Capital for Glowforge.

We are Consumers of a product offered to us at the earliest opportunity at a discount price and a (i would say quite small) level of risk.
Section 1 makes it clear that Glowforge can choose NOT to give us that opportunity. In light of this the immense amount of effort Dan and @staff have expended trying to apologise and explain is way beyond what should be enough to Build confidence back."

Then Refund… but flogging a dead horse when YOU are the one who has accepted T&C (whether YOU think they are as relevant or binding as your own personal disappointment or not). Glowforge has no responsibility to change the way they deal with us backers, i personally wish they would, i have made it abundantly clear since my first day on the forum that more engagement with the community is better than their current model. The difference is, i can deal with the fact that they do business and engagement their own way. Maybe it is time that you also need to build a bridge and get over it… or refund.

IMHO Legally (or otherwise) i believe there is nothing wrong and i would rather Glowforge use their time to get my machine here 1 day earlier than spend another day putting out spot-fires on the forum

I know what i signed up for so i am not really having my world shaken because expectations were not met.
TBH it is what keeps me sane in business and often life itself.

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You can have your oversimplistic view of the situation - and ignore how people are feeling. Most of these issues would be resolved by managing the expectations better, and by having more open communication.

@dan has expressed his deep sorrow at not being able to deliver. No one is questioning that. What most want is how will it be different moving forward (or maybe not).

Yes, people can get a refund. Some will. Some will hang around - The universe continues to spin. I think you are the one that needs to get over the fact that people have feelings and are upset, outside of what the T&C says.

So I’ll summarize what you’d like to happen: For those customers unhappy: T&CS! Ask for a refund or quit your complaining.

Glad we had this chat.

Intellectual Dissonance - there’s no cure. It just is. People are emotional. They won’t get over it and facts get in the way so they disregard or belittle the relevance of the facts and attempt to elevate other information/feelings/suppositions to the same or greater levels of importance. There simply is no rigor in most people’s thought processes. Gotta get over it or you’ll go nuts. :slight_smile:

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Just as you are unhappy some folks keep pointing you to T&Cs, this is the same thing just from the other direction. Although Dan has said he & the team will be talking about how to react to the latest firestorm, history suggests he won’t. Hoping he will is not supported by history. So, you really only have 3 choices - stay and accept that communication will not be what you (and others of us including me) would prefer, stay and bitch about how communications must change and bitch some more when they don’t; or leave.

Not a lot of choices if we’re going to ride this train.

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My God, people…

Do you want to have an unhappy life because you can’t let it go?
Because that’s what happens when you can’t let it go.

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Pointing T&Cs to people who are expressing their frustration is not going to help those who are really upset at the problem.

If the intent is to just argue with people, then thats a great way of answering posts.
A lot of people in general like to complain for the sake of complaining. You find who those are after going back and forth a few times. Best way to deal with that is to stop responding.

I do not agree that this is a “take it or leave it” situation. There is a lot that @dan has done that is left to be desired. I think trying to make things better is a perfectly acceptable thing in the face of the delays everyone has faced.

@dan will chose how he proceeds moving forward, considering the feedback he has heard from everyone; it has not been 1 week since the public announcement.

I believe after he communicates what (if anything) will change in relation to communication through August 2017 (monthly updates for example), then at that point people can chose to remain on the train or get off at the next station. Some have already made up their minds, but I am sure there are a lot others that are still waiting for an official response.

Yep. I had a friend who got fired for something not his fault (it was just personal dislike by the guy he reported to). He spent years focused on getting revenge. Always angry and unhappy as a result. The rest of us involved just moved on - it wasn’t worth the life minutes.

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Yep, I agree. I’m just not holding out much hope for material change. People tend to behave in predictable patterns and he & I have had back and forths about this and he communicates the way he does. After the April announcement we had the same conversations and he didn’t really change.

I think he’s too worried about the competition. And I don’t think the press would be worse with earlier negative news (as well as additional more frequent positive news), but he does. So I’m just figuring it’s going to be the same for the next 6 months as the last 6. He gets to make that call because he’s in the weeds and that’s his job.

I’ll either be pleasantly surprised or not prematurely disappointed. :slight_smile:

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I guess i am lucky to be trained to a level of pragmatism that doesn’t feel the need to keep ripping the band-aid off of a wound.
Yes, people do have feelings
Yes people are upset (from both the Refund & non-Refund crowd).
We have been blessed with angry input on everything from calling in the Attorney General, to replacing Dan, to independent audits and beyond…

I just want the Glowforge people to get back to their core business - making Glowforge work and getting them on our desk.

I am not emotional about this issue… it is, as i have said, what kept me from growing my hair back just so could have the luxury of pulling it out as i wailed and gnashed my teeth.

I have posted the T&C because YOUR participation is YOUR choice. YOUR emotional response is YOUR choice. As is the same with me.
You can vent at me as much as you like, if that helps? However i am willing to bet that you could write 100 more posts the same and Dan is not going to change the way he engages with the Community

As this so beautifully puts it (though a little more emotionally than i would :grin:):

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Ummmmm, seems to me we all knew what we were getting into when we made the conscious decision to PRE-PURCHASE a still in development product. In exchange for that risk, @dan and Glowforge gave us a HUGE discount on the price. Treating the team and the product like you were buying something “off-the-shelf” is a bit ridiculous. These guys and gals are a startup and are taking a huge risk themselves in trying to not only build a product but a company too. The fake outrage is not helpful to this team and I fear send a bad message to the next generation of innovators looking to build a startup of their own. I want more laser cutters, 3D printers, waterjet cutters, etc. for the prosumer market, not less. If you do too, then please be realistic in expectations. Engineering is not a strict science. As an engineer and small business owner myself, I sense that the team is trying their hardest to get it done. Perhaps we would get more frequent and open insights if we didn’t react like this. I suspect in time that the people that cancel now will be back begging for GF to let them back in line (at discounted pricing) once production finally ramps up in a few months. Bottom line, keep going Team GlowForge! Ignore the naysayers, you got this!

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Please. Why is it so difficult to let alone someone who is upset with their right to feel how they feel about delivery delays. The rules (T&C’s) are the rules and legal as all get out, but there is nothing in the T&C’s that dictate how a buyer must feel about some eventualities within that document materializing.

Please, stop throwing the T&C’s in people’s faces. There are aware of them already.

Please, stop throwing the “well, just ask for a refund if you’re not happy” in people’s faces. They already feel bad enough which is why they are commenting in the first place.

They are not telling you how you should feel, why do you (and many, many others here) feel compelled to tell them how they should feel. The T&C document does not state how people are allowed to feel about things nor could it or should it.

For the record, the T&C also has this section:

“Specifications for our Products may change from the specifications currently published on our website. (See Section 4)”

“Specifications; Refunds. We want you to be totally happy with the Product, but please be aware that the specifications for the Products may change prior to shipping. If you request a refund at any time before we accept your pre-order, we will process it promptly, and we will refund the full amount you paid. Once you provide your shipping address and we have accepted your offer, the policy in the immediately preceding sentence no longer applies.”

So assume that after waiting a year and a half longer than you expected, you receive your shiny new Glowforge Basic only to find that it now has a 10" X 6" working area and only a 25 watt tube, with the statement that they will not be doing the flip feature to achieve 1/2" thickness cutting because that was the only way they could make a unit for the price charged. Would that be enough for you to voice you disappointment to others in this forum? Yes? Well, changing spec’s like changing delivery dates is addressed in the T&C and they are 100% within their rights to make any changes. How significant an event would it take to cause you disappointment?

Please, just let people feel about things the way they feel.

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LOL, feel how you want to feel! You have my blessing.
:+1:

I feel like posting the T&C in response to reading the same complaint 1001 times when we all know that nothing is likely to change and we all willingly and knowingly signed on for the ride

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The legals of the T&C have no section that deals with how people are allowed to feel about something. You bring that judgement call to the table.

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