@Hirudin, I haven’t been reading all of the forums lately. So not sure where the hostility between you and other long time posters is originating from, you do seem to be fighting on multiple fronts though, so I apologize for joining in against you.
But on this one, you are coming off as refusing to think things through, primarily because you are responding with points already countered.
You cannot just divide the kerf by two in the software. Because the software has no idea what the kerf is. And because the kerf will change within a single job, since it depends on speed and power (and not in a linear manner) and since the material may not be consistent across the entire workflow. Kerf also changes with focus height, which not many people change within a single job, but some do. And again, this is not in a simple formulaic manner.
IF the machine were granted a “test area” in which it could go make a cut, AND the camera were dialed in well enough to measure the resulting kerf THEN it could automatically compensate IF the material being used were completely comparable where you want to compensate and where you test the kerf. Now… materials MAY be sufficiently consistent that doing such a compensation would be better than doing none at all. But it would still require a dedicated testing area with enough room for every speed/power/focus combination, and well calibrated cameras to measure the result.
Once kerf is known, or approximated, then it is indeed just as easy to compensate here as it is with shaper. So, attacking Glowforge’s choice of not allowing us to approximate kerf and compensate for that approximation is a valid stance to have. But making it clear that you would be happy to have the ability to compensate for an approximated kerf helps them know you want a low hanging fruit, instead of a potentially impossible perfection.
Why is everyone being deliberately obtuse? He didn’t say he wanted super duper automatic kerf settings. Just kerf settings period. Like, how insanely useful would it be to be able to select a line and tell it inside cut, kerf 0.xxx. Then the piece that you want to snap into it you tell it outside cut, kerf 0.xxx. All it takes is a simple offset command that multitudes of programs have for glowforge to copy. Entering a “kerf” setting is SOP in cnc machining when shooting for tight tolerances, it is just called a tool wear setting there and it adjusts the automatic “kerfs”. In fact you do it right on the machine; many of which still take their programs from floppy drives.
Not having it makes inlay pieces a much bigger pain to program into the machine and goes against glowforg’s ease of use mantra.
I think the kicker is that it looks to me like Glowforge is trying to let people be successful making things without learning things like “what does kerf mean”? And in particular avoid making the UI intimidating by including things that people don’t dare to start.
If it were me, an engineer with some CNC experience, I’d prefer the insanely useful manual setting first and then automate later. However, I’d be willing to bet there are software designers out there (perhaps at Glowforge even) that will talk long and hard about conceptual load of the UI and that being a barrier to utility and sales. I find those conversations very frustrating though when the automatic option is still about 1 million hours of testing away from being so awesome as to obviate the need for the manual one.
But then again, maybe the manual kerf adjustment is just in the hopper and somebody will just put it in there.
I think though, that the essential tension in this discussion is one that will dog Glowforge forever. It looks like the market they are after really wants to make things without a significant education (in other than safety and perhaps not even that) and that pushes against people who already know how to do what they want.
The whole camera alignment thing is another example of this. It’ll only really replace the control experienced people want if it gets a whole lot more precise (and maybe not even then because it’s still pixel bound after all), but it’ll be good enough for all the neophytes (perhaps not yet, but soon?) and a lot easier to explain. Until the automatic option actually works though, it’s a lot more frustrating than the manual one that while hard to learn actually works (and in more situations).
It would not at all surprise me if glowforge held back features that work perfectly with minor amounts of user input that make their product much more useful because a 10 year old can’t understand what it does automatically.
I’m indeed asking for low hanging fruit, not the impossible. Thanks for acknowledging that as a possible reading of what I’ve been advocating.
The notion that you think a possible interpretation of what I’ve said is I want the Glowforge to calculate the kerf with micron accuracy, I want it to do it on the fly, and I want it to do it without any user interaction is astounding to me. If you were willing to find a quote from one of my many, many posts on this subject that suggests the kerf compensation should measure all covceivable variables, I would be grateful. It was not my intention to use language that could be misunderstood to such an extreme degree.
Is it because I’ve used the word “automatic”? Is that why you seem to think I’m expecting Glowforge to invent the singularity that possesses all atomic information which it would then use to calculate variances in kerf width in order to achieve perfect compensation? That’s not what I mean by “automatic”, what I mean is “the CAM software can offset lines, and then does offset lines”.
In another thread, I was derided because some of the “automatic GF defenders” (not using the term “Cheerleaders” anymore) made the assumption that I was looking for placement accuracy within .001".
The response was “If that’s what your looking for, go spend $25,000+ on a laser made for that. This is a Glowforge” (paraphrased).
In this thread, the excuse is that kerf adjustment is ridiculously complex for lasers (and you’re stupid if you don’t understand that), that in order to get the accuracy down to more than .002" that it is going to take Glowforge a long time to perfect it and we should patiently wait.
Bull****.
Right now, we have to take parts into a third party app, do a manual kerf correction by following a ridiculous amount of steps.
All anybody in this thread is asking for is that we have an -option- to set a -fixed- amount of kerf correction. This would save a buttload of time in many people’s workflow.
On the hummingbird project I am working on, this feature would have saved me a day’s worth of work - alone.
It is a simple request. Nobody is asking for super duper automated fancy down to the millionth of a millimeter automagical kerf correction. Just the option to say, “Hey, GF. Correct for X amount of kerf, please. Thank you.”
If they are worried that it will confuse people, bury it somewhere. Make us check a box in settings that enables “Advanced” features. Don’t hobble the equipment by playing to the least sophisticated audience.
It has a lot to do with people with little to no knowledge of the subject they’re arguing making proclamations as if they’re hardened CNC veterans. Citing the Dunning-Kruger effect is a bit cliché, but… seriously… what better explanation is there?
They may be happy with the Glowforge software being inferior to other CAM software, but I’m not, and I am willing to state my opinions bluntly.
Your hummingbird project is a great example of where it would be awesome (also DXF direct import, but that is another thing and easier to work around). I had planned on doing some of the same guy’s projects as well but without manual kerf correction there is no way I am doing them (I applaud you for doing it manually)
I am not sure if anything you said made me personally think that was your argument. But those are the two sides butting heads for no real gain in the thread. One side saying you cannot be flawless, and the other side saying they don’t want flawless (but better is possible). Yet somehow everybody thinking there is a disagreement.
I assume that the “But you cannot get it flawless!” side of the table assumes than the non-adjusted results are within the accuracy range of a kerf adjusted router, because the laser kerf is so small. But, that is only the case in certain materials. I have cut things which wound up with kerf widths around 1/16" quite a few times.
Well, Shaper Origin shipping notification comes through first! Should be here in Seattle in a few days. Maybe I’ll use it to build a table for the still-in-process glowforge… And a place to store my proof-grade materials, which have arrived.
The Shaper forum is awfully quiet regards to shipping notifications or deliveries, seems only one or two people on there have received theirs and nobody’s posting anything.
This seems to be a quotable sentiment from that article:
“Perhaps surprisingly, none of us came from the power tool industry,” Hebenstreit adds. “But perhaps that’s also not surprising, as not having a preconceived notion about how something should or should not be done often leads to significant developmental breakthroughs.”
Well, it’s going to be a CNC holiday season - the glowforge has now also shipped and both it and the Shaper Origin are due to arrive the same day! Time to clear some shop space…
Thanks for the reminder about the shaper forum - I hadn’t spent much time there yet, but you’re right most of the comments seem speculative. I need to dig in to the videos to prepare.
And a place to store my proof-grade materials, which have arrived.