Pardon my ignorance, but what would one expect to gain out of a class action lawsuit?
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Best idea yet.
How about it, @dan? Something people would actually use instead of downloading crap.
Glowforge made you agree not to join a class action lawsuit or class action arbitration when you signed up. Because they care so much about their customers.
The other day, in a moment of frustration, I thought to myself that, if, when I saw the commercial for the Glowforge and decided to buy one, I had instead purchased a scroll saw, a drill press, a Dremell tool (and every available attachment) and a boatload of various tips for my woodburning toolā¦
ā¦and then, used the intervening years to practice my craftā¦
ā¦even with material costsā¦
I could probably be making the stuff Iāve been designing to cut and engrave with the Glowforge right now. I could be making the gifts I wanted to give friends and family for Christmas right now.
Then, I thought, āyeah, but Iāll be getting it in November. Plenty of time to make those Christmas gifts.ā
Shipping date: December 25
I canāt begin to describe the list of expletives that burst out of me. Whatever. Iām waiting for the darn thing, but I wonāt pretend Iām not very, very annoyed.
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Iāve too have considered where I might be with two years of experience in any other tool I could have purchased instead.
In the end, the specific abilities of a laser are relatively unachievable with anything but a laser. I donāt have 6-10k to buy the alternative for a hobby. So, I waitā¦ and I waitā¦ and I wait. There are only so many vectoring tools I can play with before preparing just makes the waiting more annoying.
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You are totaly right and thatās why Iām still in line with Glowforge but a lot less enthusiastic than before. On my paranoid moments I just tell myself. If they have keep delays informations (cancelling orders for some countries), what else do they hide? What will be the next bad news?
The spleen talks by my mouth.
Hope to be more optimistic in few days. Anyway, I have no other choice that wait so or lose all the energy I put in lasercut projects soā¦
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My point is that they can choose which model to produce. Once they hit the number of Pros to fulfill the crowdfunding campaign orders, they can switch to Basic production, until they fulfill the crowdfunding Basic orders. Youāre right about it taking time and money to switch between the two. That suggests it wouldāve been quicker and cheaper to just manufacture one and then the other. Theyāve chosen to manufacture both at varying rates. Basic and Pro models are being made at the same time. One is just made in greater numbers at a certain time. At this time, theyāre choosing to make more Pros than Basics. I suspect it takes more money than it does time to make whatever necessary changes to ramp up production of one over the other. I could be wrong. There could also be issues with availability of parts for one model over the other. I donāt really know. One thing I do know for sure is that building a Pro model ordered after the crowdfunding campaign nets them a much greater profit. Why switch production away from what makes the greatest profit in the shortest time? Why make less money at a slower pace? The answer Iād expect to those questions is āSo we can deliver the product we promised to those who promised us their money first.ā Weāve been told āall things being equal,ā order date decides when you receive your Glowforge. Allowing for a few sent out to those with greater forum participation, or those in certain locations to see how the shipping works out, or whatever other factors decide who jumps the line, everyone else should receive theirs according to the date they placed their orders. This isnāt whatās happening. Money certainly seems to be a major driving force behind that decision. If you ignore the unknown specifics of Glowforge production line changes, and just think of someone ordering a product 5 months after you did, and receiving it first, youāll see why it bothers me. If itās a money decision, I understand. If itās a logistical issue with switching production lines, I understand. If itās an issue with parts availability, I understand. All can be explained and justified by the company building these things, and Iām not going to hold it against them. I just expected the orders to be fulfilled in the order they were received, or at least close to it. An order being fulfilled first when it was received 5 months later is just a little hard to swallow, and not what I expected, whatever the reason.
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Dan.
Iām like several aboveānot much of one to gripe, and have just rolled with the punches for the last couple of years. But here I am, adding to the forum. Finally.
Things donāt add up. Hereās why:
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Iām in the first group of ordering a Basic + Filter (Oct 22, 2015). Iām in the U.S. so shipping shouldnāt be an issue. But several posts are from people ordering considerably after and receiving their units before my expected (LOL) ship date of Dec. 29, 2017. Others in this string are seeing the same thing. Seems the order dates are arbitrary. And likely are. You mention your algorithm in production / shipping is complicated, and other factors (Iām sure including the growing cancellations, squeaky wheel customers, etc.) but shouldnāt it just be easy to deliver on sequential orders? Until we receive our orders, weāre all just disgruntled investors.
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Air Filter will show up for me (theoretically) May 12, 2018. Isnāt the filter basically a fan, box and tube? I wouldāve thought your engineers would have that figured out pretty quickly. Iām sure youāve allocated all personnel to focus on getting the GF to work right, but seems an odd thing seen from the point of view of your not-as-eagerly awaiting customers.
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I go to my purchase history, and it shows the value of a $2,505 discount because I was one of those optimistic folks that ordered with the first group. However, you list the GF there at $4,000 with a $1,000 Air Filter. But on the Pre-Order page on your website, thatās listed at $3,745 to preorder instead of $5,000. So the listed ādiscountā on my purchase history is $1,240, not $2,505. This might be splitting hairs a bit, but donāt tell us weāre getting a bigger discount than we really are. By the way, $2,570 for my initial price has a 6% annual return (conservative) in interest of over $300. I take it thatās how youāre funding your additional ābonuses" for those who wait (the $150 in mats, $20/mo. for delay, etc.) So are we really getting something extra?
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Speaking of the $20 / mo. credit, when was the starting time for that? When we were told our GF would initially be shipped? For us in the first group, that would be what, Dec 2015? Or is it when we were told the second time? Or the third? Or the fourth? Or theā¦ If itās from the original ship date at the time of the order, that would make it a $500+ credit so far for the first groupāwhich is a decent consolation for people who waited an inordinate amount of time (and really no skin off your nose, as your cost for that value is minuscule).
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And back up to my point #3. Just a thought. If you list on our purchase history that a basic GF and filter is $5,000, then give the option to upgrade to a Pro, for $995 (the difference for the additional price posted on your Pre-Order page), provided that doesnāt change our ship date. Or less if it does.
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On your preorder page, you mention that if I buy today, my product WILL be scheduled for shipment in 1 month. Are you bumping your loyal pre-order early adopters for newer orders that bring you more money? Just makes us who have been waiting so long wonder.
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It seems to me that Glowforge got caught in the āwhat-ifā dilemma of product development. You get it to 90%, decide to improve it to the 2.0 model. Get that to 90% and decide to improve it to the 3.0 model, etc. Just my perception, but at some point you have to say go, and then keep developing the next gen. Because this has been 2 years in the making, for technology, thatās a lifetime ā is it still current, or are we going to receive a product out of date? Your competitors are catching up. Fast.
We want things to add upāto make sense. Please offer any clarity to these that you can. Those of us who have been the GF faithful are losing (or lost) hope. We want(ed?) to be your best advertising by what we tell our friends, business associates and family. And that doesnāt make the future of Glowforge look very bright. Just a point of view from one of your less enthusiastic investors ā and maybe someday, customer.
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I understand why you moved to creating more Pro models. It makes business sense. Obviously, if you are going to have people frustrated and canceling over the wait, youād rather it be a 2000$ pre-order than a 5-6000$ post campaign Pro unit. Plus, the cheaper orders were placed first and thus have been waiting longer and belong to those who are likely more frustrated. That decision all makes sense, but will there be a point at which you are producing Pros and Basics at the same rate? Or, do you plan to produce Pros at a 2x or 3x rate permanently? I guess, what Iām wondering is, is this a temporary solution to get caught up or should I expect that I will continue to be pushed back to accommodate building even more Pros as new orders come in? There was a post that stated that āyou may even receive it sooner if you upgrade to a proā. So, If thatās the case, will my timeline continue to slip if Pros continue to be ordered and upgrades continue to be purchased?
So 2 years was enough, but another 6 months is where you draw the line in the sand? LOL Listen, I get it. But at this point, youāre not going to get ANYTHING close to what you paid for in the pre-order process. Youāre going to have to pay at LEAST DOUBLE to get a working laser.
Just some food for thought.
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I am pretty disappointed by the significant delay in the air filter. I ordered a pro which was sold as a unit with the air filter. Our preferred plans do not allow for convenient window access. Weāve worked out a temporary solution that allows venting out a window, and Iām not interested in waiting an undetermined extended period of time to receive the laser in order to get it with the filter. While the $20/month until we get our notification email seems like a minor amount, I find myself most frustrated (with my personal situation) that it stops when we get an email for our glowforge - not when it actually arrives or, as I would have expected, when the entire order arrives including the filter.
I ordered early enough that I am pleasantly surprised that I am still scheduled to receive my shipping notification email by the end of October - so I realize Iām better off in that regard than most posting here.
FWIW, Weāre still excited to get our glowforge and are confident it is the best option out there for us. I was recently able to get one of my planned projects cut by @markevans36301, which has gone a long way towards renewing our excitement and willingness to keep waiting for the glowforge.
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You wonāt want to read it, Iām pretty sure.
I appreciate the response. My post before this one was made before reading your response. As far as the costs versus savings for referrals and delay bonuses, Iād expect those numbers to shift a bit more in your favor as more cancellations should be occurring, if recent posts are to be believed. Some of it is just venting Iām sure, but it does seem like cancellations will be more plentiful in the near future than they have been over the past two years. Each cancellation saves you the referral discounts and the delay bonuses, while also costing you the sale of a Glowforge. Customers arenāt typically concerned with a companyās profits over their own savings, and theyād expect you to eat a portion of those losses at this point. The bonuses are nice, but paying less while receiving the same bonuses would be nicer. Good luck with everything moving forward, and I hope there are no more delays, regardless of referrals and bonuses, as Iām sure you do as well. I take some comfort in knowing that the later I receive my Glowforge, the better it will be.
To clarify From day 1 there were always more Pro orders than Basic orders. Both before and after the campaign. At this time far more Basics have been shipped. So technically the Basics have moved to the front of the line.
Now personally I donāt care and donāt think in terms of what is fair. I generally trust that manufacturing and logistics play the largest role.
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I know it has been stated that the process is as follows for production of units:
-Emails are sent out
-Once enough āyes, ship me my Glowforgeā emails are received back to fill up the production line, they begin production on those units
-Units ship after production
Hereās what I donāt understand, and I totally get that I am probably being an armchair quarterback. I donāt have specific manufacturing experience. There are well over 10,000 units ordered to date, from my understanding. Even if you were shipping 1,000 units per month, weāre looking at 10 months.
That aside.
Why does the production wait on the emails to come in? If you know you have 10,000 orders (for this example), put a production plan in place to produce say even 9,000 of them as fast as is possible to still ensure quality control. THEN, worry with how they will be shipped out and in what order, based on order date, location, etc.
I know some are Basic and some are Pro, but that is really the only two configurations. Itās not like you can custom order a special lid or some other colors or anything. There are 2. Produce 2 as fast as you can. If you know that 60% are Pro (or whatever the formula is), plug that in and get cranking!
The air filters are not being produced right now anyway, so worry about that down the line. There will only be 2 of those: one to fit the Basic and one to fit the Pro. At that point, youāll know how many youāve shipped so you can do the same in productionā¦ramp up and produce as many as you can as fast as you can.
I mean, there must be a safe number that you can produce that will be sold (or are already). Iām not sure that 1,000 units have even been produced yet. If not, the timeline I was just given for March of next year is woefully optimistic at best.
Iām not thinking in terms of fair at all. It just makes more business sense. The primary goal of any business is to make money.
Iām just wondering how much I should consider this timeline realistic if delays in my basic order delivery are directly related to the rate at which new Pro units are purchased. Iām not worried at all about fairness, Iām just adjusting my personal expectations and feel like it is a fair question to ask.
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I donāt think it does. Production of your machine waits on your reply but if you delay or say no they move on to the next person to keep the line busy.
Why they do it like this I donāt know but I can hazard a few guesses:
- It releases the cash to pay for the factory order.
- Perhaps the factory order need a delivery address at the beginning as they are not retailers.
- You agree to the specific defects in that batch like cosmetic problems, etc.
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When do we get the tracking details? Iām happy to wait for the shipping while Iām watching the tracking hit different milestones!
I got my proofgrade box but havenāt heard a single word about the glowforge itself!
I believe from what I remember reading when I first ordered - that you can vent it much like a dryer - the filter is to keep particulate out of the air inside - you maybe able to run a vent to outside
Yeah, but weāre creative. Arenāt we? Weāve funded a startup, not bought a product. Iād like my investment to reflect this.
Theres more to collective action other than directly using the legal system.