Stop hatin'

[rand]

I understand what you are saying, and I think I see what you are trying to accomplish. The power of a critical post can be extreme, and serve as a dampener on what one feels they can say here. I have felt for awhile now that the frequent use of the term “cheerleader”, across various postings, in what is a dismissive fashion implies a lack of critical thinking on the part of the supportive poster. That makes me second-guess some of my posts to date.

It certainly now makes me very hesitant to make any comment on the development of the GF, the business model and the production status, the honesty and diligence of the folks making this machine – on anything but the actual amazing projects people are doing, the good news of people receiving their machines, and the fun an weird off-topic threads.

Stepping back, I recognize that “cheerleading” is really pretty unimportant in the scheme of things – the GF team will turn out the machines, in due time I will get mine, and I will create with it as I always intended. At that point I can share what I discover with it here, and continue to learn from the generous folks who so willingly share their GF learning and discoveries with all of us… The rest of this will be so many tears in the rain.

[slackk1994]

I couldn’t have said it better myself. This is a place for everyone no matter their views.

[mpipes]

I say, if someone posts something that gets under your skin, just flag it and move on. It’s not even worth the energy to call people down on things because they are not going to change the way they are.

I haven’t noticed too many personal or character attacks though. Maybe I’m oblivious or just not paying attention but I simply can not recall any direct, personal attacks other than the folks insinuating that Dan’s a crook, which comes with the territory of being the figurehead. It’s not like other forums centered around cars or off roading or racing, where people openly sling complete BS at each other. Far as I can see, this forum is pretty civil.

[jamesdhatch]

@Drea

People have a right to be upset about those factors, but to constantly imply that he’s a con man or that the company is fraudulent or incompetent is really rude - not just to the team but to everyone who has made the choice to keep backing this effort

Spot on. I agree 100%. It’s not the negativity per se that irritates me but the continuous drumbeat of name calling and character questioning (heck, it borders on character assassination sometimes). We get it, the thing is late. It’s been on time until it wasn’t multiple times. No way was it coming out in Dec 15. But if that’s the result of a con man at the helm, sticking with it either says you don’t mind profiting from con men (after all you paid less than it would cost you now that they’re delivering) or you really don’t believe in what you’re saying.

@Dan & the GF team doesn’t need me to defend them but after a year and a half, they feel almost like friends. I’d certainly buy them a pint if we bumped into one another. So it pisses me off that they keep getting insinuations of insincerity and outright fraud thrown their way.

[palmercr]

Well I seem to be the one accused of negativity but is anything I have said untrue? I see it as pointing out reality, neither positive or negative.

I haven’t called Dan names. I have just pointed out his actions. For example selling new machines to customers at BAMF telling them they were shipping now and they would get them by August. Sending the email to customers on the eve of the show. Shipping a hand full of machines ten days later and changing the schedule as soon as they arrived.

If I accused him of something he hasn’t done then it would be liable.

It does seem to be a successful business model if it comes off. The honest way would have been to secure backing from investors and develop the product in secret for a couple of years and then offer it for sale with the capabilities it actually has. They could do a 3 month pre-order to get enough orders up front to bulk buy the materials. This is exactly how I interpreted the original advertising that said it did all these things in the current tense and still does.

Does anybody here consider it honest to state in current tense that the machine does things that it still hasn’t even done yet, in print and in videos nearly two years ago?

A good example is the hi-res engraving suddenly changing from 1000 LPI to 1355DPI around the time the first PRUs went out. That means they had never done hires engraving on the machine when they wrote the marketing material. If they had they would have realised the belt / pulley / stepper combination they chose can’t do 1000LPI.

[takitus]

I enjoy your interest in finding out how certain things work on the glowforge. I feel the same in many cases and would be, or am asking the same questions. Better understanding the engineering of a device leads to being able to better utilize it and understand your limitations. It also leads to being able to make better decisions on whether a product is right for you. Im surprised more people arent interested in knowing the answers to a lot of the engineering questions you ask.

I also know the frustration of not knowing if this will be the right piece of equipment. Not knowing if you will have buyers remorse, but knowing that you COULD know, if only the staff would be forthcoming. It is frustrating. I’m in the same boat, but have been lucky enough to have an early PRU to play with.

Being of that same mind, id just like to tell you that what I’ve seen with the glowforge is a lot of really cool stuff. In January a few of us had a chat with Dan about our PRUs and he asked “do you think it’s a great machine with a few problems or a problem machine with a few great things?” I replied that at that point if I saw what I saw I wouldn’t be laying down my money for it in that state.

Things have changed since then… A LOT… and for more than the better. The software improvements that keep coming are constantly making me say “WOW, they really are making a badass machine”. The differences between this laser and any other I’ve used are pretty insane. Is it 100% ready to go? Not yet, but I know it will be.

I really big eye opener was having a release model to use at Maker Faire right down the aisle from FSL and Epilog. It made me feel like some kind of elite. Not because I had a glowforge, but because people with other lasers kept asking me why the glowforge could make all these things that they couldnt on their much more expensive lasers. I even had a few people take their just purchased FSLs on the dolly back to return after talking to me and seeing what I made on the glowforge.

My point is, is everything working right now? No. The things that are working now, however, are already blowing other laser makers out of the water, and these companies have been around for a long time. Every day they are pushing the boundaries even further. I would rather have a company say, “oh hey, btw we found that we could push our unit past the 1000dpi barrier most companies stop at, based on the hardware we ended up using” (which they demoed for the first time last MAY, so they must have known about it well before that - 1.3k lpi)

Its taken longer than anyone expected to get this done, but I really think they did it right, and with the intent of giving us something everyone can be proud of, and something that they can really keep adding functionality to for a while. If you lived close by, I would happily invite you over to check mine out to assuage any fears you might have.

Either way, Im hoping you can see the confidence I have in them through not only my words, but the amount of time I spent writing this long post just for you. I was pretty skeptical for a while, and now can only say that its a pretty fine piece of equipment, and it just keeps getting better. Ill be happy to give you any personal insight into the machine youd like, or clear up any questions you may have. Shoot me a PM whenever.

[james_scheffler]

@Drea

It’s not the dissenting views that I find problematic, it’s the disrespect. It’s possible to be critical or disagree with someone’s ideas or methods without disparaging their character. FWIW, I spoke up about that and was accused of trying to “silence” someone. Not so. I never said “don’t post” - what I said was ‘chill’. There’s a difference. Feel free to dissent. Criticize, challenge, debate, ask hard questions - but please do so respectfully.

I try to distill this down to two things that’d fit on bumper stickers:

1. Assume Good Faith
2. Respect People; Challenge Ideas

My rant on “things that fit on bumper stickers” still absolutely applies here.

[markevans36301]

@palmercr

but is anything I have said untrue?

Well since you ask… Yes, blatantly. You are constantly saying "I could fix that in five minutes “ and various other phrases like that.
No, no you could not. If there is a team working on a problem and that team has at least one Ph.D. in that specific field and it is taking weeks or months to complete then your statements along these lines are untrue, self-serving, and infuriating.

The sad thing is that you often have some good points but it is hard to take you at all serious when you spew such amphigory.

EDIT: spelling and grammer

[Jules]

Let’s face it folks… there’re some people you just wish you could buy 'em for what they’re worth, and sell 'em for what they think they’re worth.

(Damn autocorrect.)

[palmercr]

@markevans36301

If there is a team working on a problem and that team has at least one PhD in that specific field and it is taking weeks or months to complete then your statements along these lines are are untrue, self serving, and infuriating.

Yes if it does really need weeks or months for a team of programmers to change the direction I would be wrong. However I would be very surprised if it is more than a two line change to reverse the Y axis direction and a one or two line change to iterate over the lines in an image in the opposite order. If that is the case I would be correct.

Very hard to say, so what I will do is try to knock up very small 3D laser printer myself and show you the code changes needed to make it engrave the other way.

[jrnelson]

@markevans36301

amphigorey

???

[markevans36301]

Word: amphigory
pronounced: am’fi gor’ E
part of speech: Noun
Deff.: a meaningless or nonsensical piece of writing, esp. one
intended as a parody

[Drea]

Yeah, it was a spelling error (lose the “e”) … but I had to google it too, and was also tickled by that result.

Though I’m inclined to love all things Gorey.

[james_scheffler]

@Drea

Though I’m inclined to love all things Gorey.

I bet they’ll laser-engrave beautifully

[markevans36301]

this is what happens when dyslexics try to use sesquipedalians! Fixing.

[james_scheffler]

I for one offer salutations regarding such loquaciousness.

[Jules]

Say what?

[jrnelson]

lol i definitely wasn’t mocking, just momentarily quite confused.

[markevans36301]

Couldn’t blame you if you had. That e makes quite the difference.

[Tom_A]

These are all perfectly cromulent words.