Stop hatin'

Everything Else
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Totally personal request here!

Listen… Lately there’ve been a more than a few requests for some members to stop being so negative all the time, etc. in their postings. I’d really like to see those requests stop.

I’d like this to be a place where all opinions can be heard. If you disagree or are sick of a particular person’s POV… ignore them. But please don’t shut them down. I don’t disagree that there are some who seem to frequently… go against the grain. And sometimes it rubs me wrong as well. But ya know what? Sometimes the cheerleaders make me feel the exact same way. I value both views on things and I’m able to agree, disagree, or shrug them off. But I wouldn’t have it any other way.

I want to hear from the dissenters as much as I do the cheerleaders. I don’t want either to get the impression that their words don’t matter here. I certainly can’t speak for everybody, so I’ll just state that what they say matters to me.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

  • Tom
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100% agree.

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Totally agree. Everyone gets a say as long as they follow the rules. Even the ones that make me cringe occasionally have a cogent thought and I’d not get that gem if they were shut down.

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Well said!

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While I mostly agree, I have to say as a counterpoint, it chills conversation, particularly for shyer posters. If people think you’re going to get jumped on, then they won’t post.

While my ego can take it (actually I rarely give a crap what others think about me) many shy folks or beginners will be brought down and intimidated. And even for me I’m starting to find it annoying. Note my posts this morning on sound levels and alignment, that I’ve started adding that I don’t want crap for my methodology.

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I liked the way you managed to bring colons into that conversation though. :smiley:

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I’m just saying that your quote above needs to apply to all. If the nay-sayers think they’re going to get jumped on, they might not post either.

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It’s not the dissenting views that I find problematic, it’s the disrespect. It’s possible to be critical or disagree with someone’s ideas or methods without disparaging their character. FWIW, I spoke up about that and was accused of trying to “silence” someone. Not so. I never said “don’t post” - what I said was ‘chill’. There’s a difference. Feel free to dissent. Criticize, challenge, debate, ask hard questions - but please do so respectfully.

Dan is not perfect and many mistakes have been made along the way with the development of this product. People have a right to be upset about those factors, but to constantly imply that he’s a con man or that the company is fraudulent or incompetent is really rude - not just to the team but to everyone who has made the choice to keep backing this effort after all this time. I’m sure that most buyers have questioned whether or not to stick with it, and for some of us, that has been a hard choice. The additional acrimony is just unnecessary, and it only makes a hard wait even harder.

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I agree 100% that anyone can post there opinion whether I agree with it or not. Even when they are responding directly to my post and disagreeing with me. Thing is that channel flows both ways. I don’t see how anyone can ask for someone to stop calling down a person for being negative and use the "everyone has a voice argument ". Because they both do have the equal right to post the opinion that suits them as long as it’s within the guidelines of the forum. I for one do have an issue with someone getting under my skin and I wait and wait and wait then post something out of frustration. That being said I keep it cordial and short and do not push that person down or ask them not to post. I usually ask that they try to see the good in some things lol but I genuinely like everyone on here that post on a regular basis even tho sometimes some of them irk me lol.

Your opinion as well as a few others carry more weight with me simply because you make it a point to be so kind to me and others on here. I understand the position you are coming from, not wanting to see anyone get offended. I just don’t see an issue with calling out someone for negative posts any more then I see an issue with them posting negatives posts, it’s just a part of the conversation and as long as they both have general respect for each other and keep it on the up and up then it shouldn’t be a problem.

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Much like the people who are kind enough to post the projects they make (you included) getting dumped on over copyright laws. I don’t see anyone on here stating they are mass producing the item and selling them, I don’t care if the letter of the law states even one copy is an infringement. Fair use laws override any copyright law. If you find a judge that awards a settlement on personal use copy infringement you will find a judge who will lose his seat at the bench.

Sorry got off of what I wanted to say with a little tangent there. What I was saying is if people keep housing others for posting projects then they will stop.

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I’m with ya there 100%.
No matter what, have some level of respect, people. No personal/character attacks. They’re typically childish and don’t help make a real point anyway.

As for the attacks on Glowforge, Dan, and other staff… Well, that, I think, is an unfortunate thing. But it’s not surprising. How many millions of people have uttered the words “Damn Bill Gates!” or “Microsoft sucks.” or “Windows is the worst.” It’s okay if you raised your hand, too. I sure did. :wink: But here I am on my Windows 10 box. Glowforge is just a bit smaller, so it feels way more personal. But I hope that those at Glowforge take it all with a large grain of salt.

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A big fistful of salt, and maybe a bit of lime and a shot of some top shelf (or just a really good craft soda if they prefer :wink: ).

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Unfortunately this is also a factor of the tension building as we get closer to Delivery. I have seen this happen in so many different campaigns. It is like people have been (at least) civil for months/years and then as the delivery date gets closer it all goes to hell.
The counter to this is that as units are delivered all of a sudden angst decreases and things go back to ‘forum normal’

We have been patient this long people, lets hold on out for a few more weeks.

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I understand what you are saying, and I think I see what you are trying to accomplish. The power of a critical post can be extreme, and serve as a dampener on what one feels they can say here. I have felt for awhile now that the frequent use of the term “cheerleader”, across various postings, in what is a dismissive fashion implies a lack of critical thinking on the part of the supportive poster. That makes me second-guess some of my posts to date.

It certainly now makes me very hesitant to make any comment on the development of the GF, the business model and the production status, the honesty and diligence of the folks making this machine – on anything but the actual amazing projects people are doing, the good news of people receiving their machines, and the fun an weird off-topic threads.

Stepping back, I recognize that “cheerleading” is really pretty unimportant in the scheme of things – the GF team will turn out the machines, in due time I will get mine, and I will create with it as I always intended. At that point I can share what I discover with it here, and continue to learn from the generous folks who so willingly share their GF learning and discoveries with all of us… The rest of this will be so many tears in the rain.

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I couldn’t have said it better myself. This is a place for everyone no matter their views.

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I say, if someone posts something that gets under your skin, just flag it and move on. It’s not even worth the energy to call people down on things because they are not going to change the way they are.

I haven’t noticed too many personal or character attacks though. Maybe I’m oblivious or just not paying attention but I simply can not recall any direct, personal attacks other than the folks insinuating that Dan’s a crook, which comes with the territory of being the figurehead. It’s not like other forums centered around cars or off roading or racing, where people openly sling complete BS at each other. Far as I can see, this forum is pretty civil.

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Spot on. I agree 100%. It’s not the negativity per se that irritates me but the continuous drumbeat of name calling and character questioning (heck, it borders on character assassination sometimes). We get it, the thing is late. It’s been on time until it wasn’t multiple times. No way was it coming out in Dec 15. But if that’s the result of a con man at the helm, sticking with it either says you don’t mind profiting from con men (after all you paid less than it would cost you now that they’re delivering) or you really don’t believe in what you’re saying.

@Dan & the GF team doesn’t need me to defend them but after a year and a half, they feel almost like friends. I’d certainly buy them a pint if we bumped into one another. So it pisses me off that they keep getting insinuations of insincerity and outright fraud thrown their way.

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Well I seem to be the one accused of negativity but is anything I have said untrue? I see it as pointing out reality, neither positive or negative.

I haven’t called Dan names. I have just pointed out his actions. For example selling new machines to customers at BAMF telling them they were shipping now and they would get them by August. Sending the email to customers on the eve of the show. Shipping a hand full of machines ten days later and changing the schedule as soon as they arrived.

If I accused him of something he hasn’t done then it would be liable.

It does seem to be a successful business model if it comes off. The honest way would have been to secure backing from investors and develop the product in secret for a couple of years and then offer it for sale with the capabilities it actually has. They could do a 3 month pre-order to get enough orders up front to bulk buy the materials. This is exactly how I interpreted the original advertising that said it did all these things in the current tense and still does.

Does anybody here consider it honest to state in current tense that the machine does things that it still hasn’t even done yet, in print and in videos nearly two years ago?

A good example is the hi-res engraving suddenly changing from 1000 LPI to 1355DPI around the time the first PRUs went out. That means they had never done hires engraving on the machine when they wrote the marketing material. If they had they would have realised the belt / pulley / stepper combination they chose can’t do 1000LPI.

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I enjoy your interest in finding out how certain things work on the glowforge. I feel the same in many cases and would be, or am asking the same questions. Better understanding the engineering of a device leads to being able to better utilize it and understand your limitations. It also leads to being able to make better decisions on whether a product is right for you. Im surprised more people arent interested in knowing the answers to a lot of the engineering questions you ask.

I also know the frustration of not knowing if this will be the right piece of equipment. Not knowing if you will have buyers remorse, but knowing that you COULD know, if only the staff would be forthcoming. It is frustrating. I’m in the same boat, but have been lucky enough to have an early PRU to play with.

Being of that same mind, id just like to tell you that what I’ve seen with the glowforge is a lot of really cool stuff. In January a few of us had a chat with Dan about our PRUs and he asked “do you think it’s a great machine with a few problems or a problem machine with a few great things?” I replied that at that point if I saw what I saw I wouldn’t be laying down my money for it in that state.

Things have changed since then… A LOT… and for more than the better. The software improvements that keep coming are constantly making me say “WOW, they really are making a badass machine”. The differences between this laser and any other I’ve used are pretty insane. Is it 100% ready to go? Not yet, but I know it will be.

I really big eye opener was having a release model to use at Maker Faire right down the aisle from FSL and Epilog. It made me feel like some kind of elite. Not because I had a glowforge, but because people with other lasers kept asking me why the glowforge could make all these things that they couldnt on their much more expensive lasers. I even had a few people take their just purchased FSLs on the dolly back to return after talking to me and seeing what I made on the glowforge.

My point is, is everything working right now? No. The things that are working now, however, are already blowing other laser makers out of the water, and these companies have been around for a long time. Every day they are pushing the boundaries even further. I would rather have a company say, “oh hey, btw we found that we could push our unit past the 1000dpi barrier most companies stop at, based on the hardware we ended up using” (which they demoed for the first time last MAY, so they must have known about it well before that - 1.3k lpi)

Its taken longer than anyone expected to get this done, but I really think they did it right, and with the intent of giving us something everyone can be proud of, and something that they can really keep adding functionality to for a while. If you lived close by, I would happily invite you over to check mine out to assuage any fears you might have.

Either way, Im hoping you can see the confidence I have in them through not only my words, but the amount of time I spent writing this long post just for you. I was pretty skeptical for a while, and now can only say that its a pretty fine piece of equipment, and it just keeps getting better. Ill be happy to give you any personal insight into the machine youd like, or clear up any questions you may have. Shoot me a PM whenever.

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I try to distill this down to two things that’d fit on bumper stickers:

  1. Assume Good Faith
  2. Respect People; Challenge Ideas

My rant on “things that fit on bumper stickers” still absolutely applies here.

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