Tube Replacement - Game Changer for Overseas buyers?

Very true, and I will be far more disappointed if it really is technical. They look for all the world to me right now like a new company freaking out over all the imaginary lawsuits the lawyers are envisioning. A lot of fledgling companies do that. Sure they will have liability and yes there will still be law suits even if they cover every angle. just look at how paranoid they’ve become about anyone saying anything on their public forum that might relate to safety. It’s my guess there’s a lawyer hiding in the background on this one. What they need to do is look at the industry and see that this is completely unacceptable.

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I think it would be a huge mistake to assume that $500 is the total cost to you, the consumer to replace a tube.

Since @dan is as usual vague about anything of substance, until he clarifies you can keep the ambiguity.

Trust me, this is an engineering problem. The serviceability of the tube is something that if it were taken into account when the design was conceived, there should be no issue with replacing a tube. Please tell me which other laser company out there in the world today expects you to ship the entire machine back for this type of consumable part?

To me saying that its “a liability thing” is a way of hiding without needing to address the actual reasons why the tube is not an user replaceable part.

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I agree and was simply responding to the question about them not taking the time to think out the design, because I knew I had read that it had been worked on. For some reason I also thought I had seen mention of tube replacement designs more recently, but this was all I could find.

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What a sad day for the international GF community! I have been so ridiculously excited over the last almost-two years where daily forum checks are part of my morning routine. To anyone outside this particular group this sounds pathetic but I do feel the loss of a dream that disappear in a comment that reads like an afterthought. Biannual maintenance costs of 2500$ (incl.freight) is just impossible to justify :’(

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Actually @dan has already said the decision was made because they felt they couldn’t make the process both easy and safe. He’s also said (I’ll try to find the quote) that it only takes them a “Minutes” in shop and does not require any special tools. So I think liability is exactly what this is all about.

And, for the record, I agree that I don’ think $500 will end up being the total cost under this method, but that is what he actually said.

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This what you were looking for?

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I don’t think he did say that. He said the tube replacement would be $500 or less, not the total cost. Total cost includes shipping costs (as well as lost revenue).

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I hate this, but I can also understand it (but I also wish there were a second source for GF tubes so the adventurous could still do it). Remember that support question from a pre-release user about why the proofgrade settings wouldn’t work with box-store plywood. At least some of the user base is going to be a) not technical enough to do swap safely and effectively and b) not aware of this fact.

I am hoping that a lot of things will happen in 2 years, so that (for example) there might be parallel tracks for either getting the replacement done at the factory or getting a tube shipped out.

I’m in the US, but this is still a blow to me. I won’t cancel, but between keeping the box safe and dry and the risk of damage in shipping it two times for each tube replacement, it is depressing as heck.

My speculations on the why. In all the projects I’ve worked on we do proof of concept on the unknowns, like a user replaceable gantry mounted laser tube, before advancing to full blown development. That proof of concept is taken to the, we’re pretty sure this can be accomplished stage. During development there are good days and bad days. For a while it looks like one of the proof of concepts was a fail, but then you figure something out. Sometimes it isn’t figured out until very close to release. Again, most of the things you did proof of concept on have no real problems, it’s just that one thing. That they couldn’t meet all of their requirements, on this item, this late in the game, I can believe. The tube is probably mostly replaceable, but it doesn’t meet 100% of the requirements necessary. I doubt it is anything nefarious.

If this is a deal breaker for you, you can always wait until their solution is a bit clearer before requesting a refund. Like a commitment to open a certified repair center in your geography or pay/subsidize shipping to the $500 equivalent if they do not open one within 2 years. I don’t know what I would do if I lived outside the US.

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And of course you believe everything @dan says? Where he has been on point on all his interactions with the users in the forum? Lets point to November where 2 weeks before announcing another massive delay he indicates that things are going so great that there is no reason to think there would be a delay, and he knew already that was not the case.

On the costs, there is no evidence that he says the shipping is included in the $500. I believe that $500 would be the cost of the replacement kit for the tube, not the actual shipping the whole unit to/from the service depot, including the insurance on the shipment, and the actual time to get the work done.

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I think your approach is sound. Unfortunately @dan has de-prioritized the tube issue in his announcement.

The conspiracy theorist in me is looking at what was said, and interpreting as we want to ship all the orders, take the money out of escrow, and then deal with the fall-out of absurd replacement policies and costs.

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True. But I guess I choose to believe some. Personal choice :slight_smile:

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I was disappointed by the de-prioritization as well. I have posted before that I believe glowforge is poor at public relations, but that I can deal with it. My original post here was made before I read dan’s reply on the discussion thread about replacement taking minutes. That gives me a very reasonable hope that after sitting down and taking some time to think, a cost-effective solution will be developed.

So another story that relates to this. We just released a new product to replace a very old product. Most of our customers are outside the US and one of our design goals was to make nearly everything user replaceable. Our old product is very robust and reliable, but only one part, the wear part, is user replaceable. Anything else that breaks or wears out has to be returned to the US for service. This is a sore point with or customers. So we worked very hard on user replaceable parts. We tested and tested and were very proud of ourselves. Then I went to watch an evaluation group. The participants had to read the instructions. With pictures. It was like watching a group of drunken macaques with a hex wrench. Our product is not a consumer product - professional use only. So when @dan says something they couldn’t support user replacement of, I really, really get it. Especially for a product promoted as sitting in a suburban living room. I also believe (or maybe I just want to believe) that a reasonable solution will be found before they send out address verification emails.

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I get the serviceability discussion, but in my world when we are looking at this, the feasibility of the repair is weighed against the cost of the sub component.

Say we have a widget that costs $1000. If a part that is a consumable, or more prone to damage costs $100, we will implement that as a serviceable part. if the part in question is $500, then there is a high probability that we will not make it serviceable because its not economically viable.

Taking this to the current example at hand, we have a part that is going to wear out. It is a known quantity, just a matter of time. It should have been designed with replacements in mind.

I am not convinced this is a liability issue alone - All current laser companies will sell you replacement tubes. They seem to be able to work around the “scary liability” issues outlined.

see http://support.epiloglaser.com/article/8205/12227/ as one of many examples.

Shipping an item that big, without the original packaging (that most people wont have after 2 years) is a non starter. I would have loved to be in that meeting where @dan thought this would be a good idea.

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Correct - when we replace a tube it’s trained engineers who do it.

We did. Unfortunately, after working through the plan we had to make this possible, we determined it wasn’t.

Features we put on the front page of the website are our top priority. Specifications we put in the FAQ is second. Answers to forum questions, emails, etc reflect our plans but are prioritized lower.

Indeed, it’s very likely that we’ll do a lot of work to make this easier, cheaper, and less expensive before it’s a problem for anyone in >12 months. But I don’t want to tell you we’re going to do something unless we have a clear plan to successfully do that, and it is, unfortunately, far too complicated for us to put together that plan now.

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How can you expect people to stand behind a purchase, based on the idea that they get to replace the tube on their own, with a “We have at least a year before it fails to figure out if we can come up with non cost prohibitive way of dealing with this, but if not, pay us or have a fancy paper weight, your choice.”

This is making Glowforge come across as designed to be disposable without the appropriate price tag.

And I agree with another poster, this hasn’t gone out by email so many many owners likely don’t know yet and the forum backlash could be much much more if they did know.

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Now I know that GF staff are fully aware how many non-US customers they have and what a burden this tube replacement policy will be. But I think all international customers should email GF with your concerns. They need to hear from you in masses to understand what a game changer this is to you. Personally, I don’t want to box up my GF and send it to the service HQ for a tube replacement that I am full competent to do. That’s ridiculous. - Rich

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The way I see it is that its not good news for anyone.

I know glowforge doesnt like this situation any more than we do. Now they have to deal with the logistics of having all these whole units shipped in for service, and dealing with the large loss theyre going to take on that, along with the extra staffing to do the work, when it wasnt originally planned for.

On top of that its going to be a big hit to their reputation, theyre going to lose customers, and theyre still going to have this problem staring them in the face waiting to be dealt with after they finally start getting the units shipped, instead of being able to take a breather and celebrate that their hard work is out in the world finally.

I wouldnt want to have that hanging over me while trying to finish a product launch. Im not happy about it, and I definitely dont want to be shipping my laser out to have my tube replaced, but the last thing this was, was intentional. Its just an unfortunate reality for the time being… for everyone. Maybe once they dont have their noses to the grindstone getting the lasers out, they will be able to have enough space to come up with a novel solution to this issue. Theyve shown us some pretty cool innovation so far.

I dont blame anyone for being angry, or wanting to cancel. That is totally justified. This is one of those things that should have been addressed a lot earlier. I just really dont see any malintent here. This is a loss-loss situation, and the best thing we can do (for those of us staying in) is try to come up with the best solution together. Hopefully they will open up the lines of communication on this a bit to help everyone know whats going on, and maybe the discussion will ignite some spark to make this whole thing easier on the lot of us.

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And when did you know this?

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I’ve never bought the liability angle. It is oversold in popular culture; managing liability is a part of business. Lawyers are like dogs. They object to the liability excuse the way your dog objects to being blamed for who farted. It’s convenient.

Of every disappointing thing they’ve announced this is the first one that I would expect an investor to ask for a recalculation of their basic financial projections. The cost and inconvenience may not only impact unit sales, but also per capita consumption rates of ProofGrade materials. Not so much as to make glowforge bankrupt, but enough that if there is another financing round a lot more equity would have to be given away.

As I read it, glowforge is swapping a $500 replacement kit with a $500 ship it to us service. Given that they opted for a dedicated line at Flex instead of batch production I can’t believe they don’t expect to have a critical mass of units in the EU to establish a European service center that could offer equivalent pricing. Same for Canada. For customers in other territories…

Between Dan’s comments about the time it takes and that they can’t offer a glowforge branded replacement kit, this announcement may be a poorly thought out trial balloon. Maybe they really can’t offer a glowforge branded replacement kit, but that doesn’t mean an alternative and still viable solution can’t be offered. To casually mention it in their monthly update…well have I mentioned what I think about their public relations skills?

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