Well THAT'S new

[mpipes]

@dan

Finally, if you select a bitmap, there’s some new settings - those should be described in the Software Improvements post but were inadvertently omitted. I’ll see about getting them updated for next week. In the mean time, feel free to experiment.

Yep I got in a “Map power to grays” engrave done earlier, pretty nice!

If the number conversion is something that can be handled via external spreadsheet, doesnt it make sense to hold off on changing the UI for now and just let the UI do that calculation in the background?

Gotta have some kinda real world units. Even if the units dont have much weight with newbie users since they have to learn everything from scratch anyway, it’s going to be easier for support to deal with questions that relate to a real number.

[palmercr]

@takitus

Again, I don’t see any issues with power conversion to percentage, but changing the speed isn’t making anything easier, it makes it harder.

Power isn’t a percentage. It is just an arbitrary scale from 1 to 100. We don’t know what wattage 1 or 100 correspond to. 100 certainly isn’t full power.

[palmercr]

@jkopel

What if they did a lot of testing and determined that the effect of decreasing the speed varied according to some specific function, and then introduced the new scale to provide that function to us in an easy to use fashion?

They haven’t though. The new scales are still linear functions of speed, approximately 90 + 2.6x for cut and 89 + 2.7x for engrave. All they do is offset and rescale so that the minimum and maximum speeds are nice round numbers.

[erin]

So… If someone were to have both a basic and a pro, their head is just going to explode trying to use them both?

I don’t have a basic and a pro. But I’m imagining someone does*, and they’re trying to solve for x, cursing themselves for not paying better attention in algebra 2- okay, now I’m just projecting.

*will. This is a future imagining. I suppose only glowforge themselves have both a basic and a pro at the moment.

[palmercr]

From the improvements page:

Precision power is the same between Basic and Pro.

And from above:

@dan

Our plan is to raise the top speed number so that old numbers still work.

So I think that means settings are mainly compatible between the two but the pro will have a higher range of speed and its full power is higher. But if the pro precision power settings are the same as basic that means it is being artificially restricted unless it goes to 120.

[kennethclapp]

Thinking about the arbitrary scales Glowforge has decided to use, besides the numbers having no real world correlation (at least not without a spreadsheet to do a converstion for you) it’s not only going to make it harder to glean ideas, settings, etc., from non-glowforge websites, magazines and so forth, it’s going to make noob glowforge users look stupid when they try to interact with others within the laser cutting/engraving community. For instance, someone gets on a forum or website, other than this one and says, “Well, I’m having trouble, I’ve set me speed to 1000 and my power to 80.” The response will be, “1000 what-inches, millimeters…? And I’m assuming you mean 80% power.” To which the newby will only be able to reply, “No, just 80 and 1000, that’s what my Glowforge calls it, but I have no clue what that means.”

Sadly I think this will ultimately mean that Glowforge users will quickly be stereotyped as those people who can’t communicate or share with anyone else because their machine speaks a completely different language.

I understand that Glowforge is trying to break down barriers so that laser cutting/engraving can be available and viable for a much bigger audience. I applaud that, I’m part of that audience. But there comes a point where you simply erect another wall which will become very frustrating to their users as well, once they start to grow and gain a little understanding.

I think a great way around this would to be to add an option in the interface - “Use Glowforge Settings” which would be their random scales of 1-100 and 1-1000, and then something like “Use Universal Settings” which actually show percentages of power and inches per minute in speed. I’m sure they could come up with better names, but you get the point. The Glowforge could end up being a great “gateway laser” for some, who love it, grow with it, and then eventually want to add more powerfull tools along the way. If, however, Glowforge decides to speak its own language and leaves its users completely illiterate then it will not have reached its real potential. – Just some thoughts.

P.S. - Not that I’m wanting them to stop what they’re doing and rework this right now, I’d much rather get my Glowforge with the current settings, just keep it in mind as you plan your future path

[takitus]

Well written. @dan I think you guys should really take this into account.

[palmercr]

If speed was in cm / minute it would go from 10 to 850, giving the same sort of resolution with integers as the arbitrary numbers do.

[takitus]

That was my initial hope as to what the conversion was last night, but a few seconds of checking found that not to be the case =(

[Jules]

Not that it matters, but I’m going to put in a vote for not changing the scales. From a business standpoint, the scales are nothing short of a brilliant idea. Obviously a lot of thought went into them.

It pushes sales of Proofgrade from an ease of use standpoint. (And before everyone gets their knickers in a twist over them wanting to push Proofgrade sales…of course they do. How in the hell are they supposed to stay in business without doing so? And if we want to keep using the Glowforges, we want them to stay in business for a long, long time.)

Yes, they’re a little less friendly to use for other non-Proofgrade products, but they’ve given us an easy to use little conversion formula - not a tremendous hassle.

So in my humble opinion, which, with a fiver is good for half a cup of coffee at any Starbucks, they should leave it just the way it is. A little less convenient for us, but a whole lot better in the long run for everyone who bought one of these things.

(Add: Besides, for all we know, they’re necessary for that really cool depth mapping process that we want so badly.)

[takitus]

@Jules

A little less convenient for us, but a whole lot better in the long run for everyone who bought one of these things.

I couldnt disagree more.

To a new unknown user, the numbers are all arbitrary, so why not use something they can communicate with everyone else? This also creates an additional learning curve/pain point when trying to move past being a neophyte. Leaving this obfuscated only serves to hurt users in the long run, and it will be a pain for me and most others immediately.

Completely unnecessary

[Jules]

@takitus

I couldnt disagree more.

I know. Fortunately they aren’t likely to listen to either of us, so it doesn’t make a bit of difference. I was just putting my opinion of what they’ve done out there for them to see.

They do their own thing.

[Tom_A]

Am I wrong or shouldn’t this be the correct entries in the conversion sheet:
D3
=IF(A4+(B4-A4)(C3-A3)/(B3-A3)>=500,500,A4+(B4-A4)(C3-A3)/(B3-A3))

D7
=IF(A8+(B8-A8)(C7-A7)/(B7-A7)>=1000,1000,A8+(B8-A8)(C7-A7)/(B7-A7))

[dan_berry]

I entirely agree with this sentiment, that it creates a potential barrier in the lasering community.

But to be fair, there’s also no reason Glowforge couldn’t offer a “Basic” settings tab and an “Advanced” settings tab via preferences. The only difference that the Basic Settings would show these new non-unit sliders, and the Advanced Settings would use arguably industry standard units.

[davidandmaraya]

Similar to Cura and other maker softwares. I like this.

[bruceaulrich]

@Jules

It pushes sales of Proofgrade from an ease of use standpoint. (And before everyone gets their knickers in a twist over them wanting to push Proofgrade sales…of course they do. How in the hell are they supposed to stay in business without doing so? And if we want to keep using the Glowforges, we want them to stay in business for a long, long time.)

Fantastic point.

[davidandmaraya]

But don’t PG materials bypass the need for this with their barcodes?

[palmercr]

I think cm/m would solve everything. Cuts would go 10 to 400 on basic and 10 to 500 on pro. Engrave would go 10 to 850 on basic and 10 to 1000 on pro.

10cm is 3.94", close enough to 4.
400cm is 157.5", close enough to 157.
850cm is 334.7" close enough to 335.

In fact it looks like the original numbers were just centimetres converted to inches. Not surprising as the belts seem to be metric.

So the only change would be the scale starts at 10 instead of 100. The engrave cut scale goes to 400 instead of 500, but the pro will go to 500. The engrave scale will go to 850 instead of 1000 but the pro will go to 1000.

[jrnelson]

yeah, i personally don’t see how obfuscating the units makes it more user friendly at all. but given their clear distaste for discussing settings out of legal liability, i’m not surprised. i find the legal excuses odd - i’m not using odd to be insulting; i genuinely find it odd given that basically every other laser manufacturer does it (i’m not suggesting gf needs to be like every other manufacturer, simply that i’m not convinced by the talk about legal liability).

with all that said, i’m not that worried by it; i think it’ll be easy enough for me to convert to what i need, and dan mentioned that they’re looking into allowing some alternate units so meh, whatever makes things easier for everyone.

[dan_berry]

@jrnelson

whatever makes things easier for them.

But… no. It should be whatever is easier for me.

While I would also consider it a relatively minor nuisance in the bigger picture, it’s something that goes against the recognized norm of the industry to address an unproven barrier towards the GUI’s acceptance. If they’re going to make such a leap, I’d at least have appreciated seeing some sort of proof that they did a survey of users who claimed “using units is hard” – but this is just (sorry @tony; I’m generalizing at your expense) one person’s (probably a committee’s) world view.

Is using units hard?

• Yes
• No