I don’t plan on really sharing that kind of thing. I was more or less just saying I’m out. I’m not here to turn others to competition.
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Being good at repairs for a while does help show you are reliable. But I would stipulate they need to perform X total repairs OR 3 years, whichever takes longer. Otherwise person in a remote location may only ever fix his own machine one time in that 3 year span.
But… repairs are also not the same beast as material storage. If you store proofgrade in a crappy way (plywood standing on end, everything out in the weather…) then it is not reliable any longer.
So, maybe also have a requirement that they come out and inspect your intended storage facility before you can become a Proofgrade reseller.
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There absolutely are ways to get users qualified to do repairs, even on items with huge liability concerns. Here is a great example: HOG scuba regulators. The company will sell you the parts to service your reg, but only if you have completed a certification course. The course can apparently be offered by many independent shops who are themselves certified to do the instruction.
Here is one example:
http://shop.scubatude.com/HOG-TDI-Regulator-Service-Course-HOGREGCLASS.htm
Since replacing a tube takes “minutes” the class time and costs could also surely be less than this 8-hour $275 course. (I have no idea what it takes to become a HOG instructor but I am sure it is longer and more expensive.)
Designing such a 2-level curriculum and getting the lawyers to sign off on all the fine print would be a big job, no doubt. But it is possible, and it’s the right thing to do for the users. (Or at least one of the “right things” GF could choose to do.)
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It was a for instance I could have said frankys widgets and you still would have jumped own my throat
I have to say this is a huge disappointment. My husband and I have been planning to use this to help revitalize our leather-working business and have put a lot on the line to stick with Glowforge’s consistently slipping timelines.
I truly find @dan 's approach to this entire situation to be incredibly disappointing. This isn’t a minor issue, this is a massive sticking point. We actually e-mailed the company prior to placing our pre-order to specifically ask how much replacements would be and were told that they would be < $500 and would also be user-replaceable. This was a major factor in our decision to invest in a Glowforge, as it meant we could order a replacement ahead of time and have it on hand in case the tube died or became so weak as to be unusable. Both my husband and I are incredibly technical and my dad has an electrical engineering degree, so I think we could handle changing this out without harming ourselves or the equipment.
As I see it, the current options for replacement seem to be:
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Shipping runs the risk of damage to the Glowforge, both going AND coming back, no matter how far it has to be shipped. It also guarantees at least 2-3 weeks of delay, which is rather likely to be impossible to schedule for since we probably won’t know exactly when the tube will need to be replaced. The cost of shipping the product AND the impossibility of keeping all of the packing material forever adds even more problems. Verdict - NOPE, not feasible.
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“Local” service site - Yeah, not likely. While we do live fairly close to a major metropolitan area right now, that may not always be the case. Verdict - NOPE, especially considering that Glowforge has NO plans to create service centers, which makes this really impractical.
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Service reps - Again, SO much liability here, even more than just letting the end user handle it themselves. Glowforge now becomes somewhat liable for these people as they drive around to provide service, there is still a delay in repair AND more cost than just replacing this ourselves. We didn’t figure that cost into the cost of maintenance on the Glowforge. Verdict - Again, too much work, paperwork, and liability for Glowforge, so probably NOPE.
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Certification via Glowforge to handle the replacement - This is a much better option, if something is absolutely needed at all to make the sharks happy. This would need to be available online or would need to be a free/low-cost seminar that people could travel to local hubs to attend. This should not be something that requires a great deal of additional outlay of expense. If the training/certification isn’t online, the training options would need to be VERY frequent, at least once a month in each hub. The online certification might be the best and least-expensive option for making everyone happy. Verdict - Possible and not entirely unreasonable.
As a business, it makes no sense to expect us to be ok with having days of down-time because of a known issue with something that is expected to wear out. I highly doubt that Kinko’s would be ok with having to be down for days because one of their printers ran out of toner. If there is a true problem with the laser, I can see returning it for service, but for a consumable part? No-one is going to buy this if they have to ship a 55-70lb paper weight into the manufacturer at least once every 18-24 months! The naivete of that is mind-boggling.
It is that seeming naivete which gives me pause. Dan isn’t that stupid/naive. What he IS however, is slick. As I said, NOBODY is going to buy something that they know is going to be out of service for at least 2-3 weeks (at a minimum) every 18-24 months (at the outside). Dan has to know that. His investors know that. EVERYONE knows that. So what is the actual deal here?
What this all says to me is that what Dan is actually expecting to get out of this announcement is a free pass to delay the Glowforge deliveries again, possibly for several more months, so they can “fix” this issue that should never have been an issue in the first place. I personally believe that Dan is fully aware that this is unacceptable and so, instead of taking the hit and being the bad guy for pushing back the delivery dates, he is trying to get the community of buyers to ASK for it to be delayed to “restore” something that we have been assured since the beginning was part of the item we paid for. This would also give them more time to work through warranty and certification issues with a variety of international countries, which is probably another reason why the international units are shipping last. THIS is why I am frustrated. (Also, the $4000+ that I have had tied up since the beginning of this process, the interest I am paying, which I can never get back even if I cancel, etc.)
Based on all of this, I truly think that what is happening here is that the deadline is slipping again, and the Glowforge executive team is pulling a fast one to make that “acceptable” to the community. They will also come in looking all shiny and heroic if they can suddenly find a way to provide something that they supposedly already had, so YAY, everyone’s all happy again, except for those who are asking for refunds. I think this is a grand way for them to bury some of the other disappointing things in the post, including the fact that the air filters may STILL not be ready, they aren’t shipping by order date as they have said over and over again that they would, and there are still issues with the Pro’s promised functionality that have barely even been tested less than 5 months from delivery. Seriously, @dan, this is disingenuous.
With all of this said, we are going to hold on for a little while and see what the further response is. If we get our shipping e-mail and there has been no solution provided that handles this in a satisfactory manner, and if the promised functionality of the Pro models is not fully present, we are going to have to cancel our order.
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Higher. I’d be insuring my $5000 laser and not relying on the $100 of package coverage that’s included with the UPS shipping fee 
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Low end inkjet printers are effectively disposable due to the cost of ink. I have to say, I did not expect the “3D laser printer” slogan to mean that lasers would be heading down the same path as inkjets, albeit at 10x the cost.
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@dan I’m with the majority here Dan, tacking the announcement onto the end of the post wasn’t good planning.
I’m trying to see things from your perspective and I’m guessing that:
- Your FNL dropped this bombshell pretty recently and was immovable on it.
- You can’t divert resources to engineer the issue out as the design is finalised and cancellations would be a landslide if you delayed again, plus…
- …You now have Flex on a timeline for production and time is most definitely money now. It’s non-negotiable, you can’t stop the engine now.
- You’d love to sell the tube directly to folks as promised but FNL says that if you put instructions in and someone sets their dog on fire doing the job you’re on the hook. Selling it without instructions is just a million times worse. Waivers hold no weight.
- You’d consider opening the manufacturer of the custom tube up to customers in order to sidestep this issue and make it right, but FNL thinks this is still thin ice and anyway the VC’s see this as being part of your IP and what they paid for - there’s no way they’ll let you do this.
- You have no service infrastructure with which to promise local service or service centres.
It’s quite the pickle.
A few questions then:
- You say you can’t support user-replaceable tubes but can / will Glowforge sell customers the tube? a yes / no on this would answer a LOT of people’s questions here.
You say you have ‘trained’ engineers doing this job internally.
2) Who trains them?
3) How long is this training?
4) Can it not be formalised for the community? (I could help here)
5) Can the FNL not be placated by a waiver?
A couple of counterpoints to the problems outlined above:
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The longer you wait to tell us you’re not going to just let this slide the longer it’s going to rip the community apart. Just drop us a note to let us know you’re reading and thinking and soul searching. It’s what we need right now, and it will certainly slow the heamorage of pre-orders which is likely just starting.
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You don’t need an engineering / logistics fix to this issue so you don’t need to divert resources from those teams. I think this is a customer service issue / legal issue, so perhaps divert (or hire!) resources in these areas and let logistics and manufacturing do their thing?
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Selling the tube to customers without instructions is obviously a mistake and not what you’d want to do. My guess is that sticking to your guns and forcing people to ship back for a repair is going to tank the business. Perhaps selling the tube with a waiver (however weak that might be legally) is the lesser of two evils?
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Allowing us access to the tube manufacturer might seem like an insane decision but if it does side-step the legal issues then perhaps the VC (or whomever might be saying it’s a ‘no’) might consider the alternative?
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All great points. Concerns have been circulating for some time over Proofgrade being inaccessible to overseas owners, and now this tube replacement issue strains things even more. If we can find ways to put our community members as active participants in the business model, other than simple owners, we can enhance everyone’s value, and to the company as well. Bringing sales of Proofgrade to overseas would not only improve user experience, but boost the company bottom line and fund the development of overseas Proofgrade sources of supply.
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Sure! But let’s say that’s optional. I’m trying to anticipate barebones Cost Of Ownership here.
I know my inkjet printer is going to use $90/year of ink. I know that up front. So once I get below 50% left I can order new ink from Amazon. My downtime is 0 (save the seconds it takes to replace a cartridge), and there are no additional costs involved with this at all. I expected to do the same with my Glowforge. When the tube reaches 50% life, I’d order a new one and have it waiting when needed.
But, Jesus! To know up front that this thing is going to cost me $500/year in up-keep?! Wow! At that point it almost becomes disposable! I mean, who knows how much it will cost in 2-3 years to replace the entire machine? Will that machine be even better? Maybe I should just set aside $500/year until the tube dies and then decide.
Problem is, will I get >$500/year ROI?
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I cirtanly had a similar thought when I saw customer made polls saying they would be willing to wait longer in order to solve the issue.
Yep, this too. The whole “We have the first factory-produced Pro units in the office” set me back and then I saw the tube replacement info and flipped onto that.
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Not an entirely unreasonable possibility. I would accept a delay to fix this problem (that I agree should not be a problem - especially after multiple posts by Dan about the magic being used to create an easy user replaceable tube). Just another “taking longer than we planned again” delay would be a serious WTF are you serious moment. So you could be right. It’s coldly calculating but possible.
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Certainly not saying I think this is as much of a response as should be given in this situation, but in case others didn’t see it, Dan sort of commented on the community response over on another thread by saying
“Indeed, it’s very likely that we’ll do a lot of work to make this easier, cheaper, and less expensive before it’s a problem for anyone in >12 months. But I don’t want to tell you we’re going to do something unless we have a clear plan to successfully do that, and it is, unfortunately, far too complicated for us to put together that plan now.”
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I understand tube replacement under the warranty will be at no charge and this should include shipping. As far as tube replacement after warranty has expired, what difference would it make if a customer did not replace the tube correctly since it is out of warranty. I believe then while under warranty we do what is required by Glowforge and after warranty we are given the option. I also think Glowforge can set up a You Tube video on how to replace a tube safely & properly.
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They are potentially allowing grandma to work around dangerous voltage even after the plug is disconnected. Great videos aren’t going to make the lawyers any happier.
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Maybe this will help get the point across
I certainly wasn’t intending to jump down your throat, and I’m sorry if it came off that way.
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Another possible scenario is that the logistics of delivering the promised amount of units on time, at the presale price vs cost of production and potential cost if there are a high number of defective units in initial shipments that need to be returned for service under warranty means that it makes better business sense to discourage a large number of of pre order purchasers, preferably international, from following through with their purchase and instead focus on getting the product solid in the US market before aiming for further international sales. Maybe this idea is totally left field but unfortunately I can’t help thinking things like this when receiving an update that essentially states that unless you are rich, international customers ought cancel their orders…
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Oh, I was hoping the hot dog was going to explode. In the 80s I worked at a company that made equipment that connected to telephone lines (small businesses, so inside the building.) Every spring, especially from the SE United States, we’d see a bunch of repairs for lightning strikes. Sometimes parts would be blown out of the PCB and other times parts would be blown in half. The little bits rattling around inside the case.
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So based on this message I received this evening, on this forum. Competitors are already moving in to the cloud of chum left by todays announcement. @dan,.Say something mate, anything!
Greetings other possible UK GF owners.
Given today’s announcement I’m not sure I can even be bothered to wait for the end of the queue only to get a machine that will cost me a fortune when the tube runs out. 2 years of light use means 1 year of normal use so it’s very disappointing to hear it won’t be user servicable.
I’m not trying to capitalise on our collective misfortunes but I just wanted to say that we’re going to be making an announcement about the vanillabox laser cutter in the next few weeks and you might like to hear what we have to say… http://www.justaddsharks.co.uk/vanillabox
We hate the salesman aspect of the job but sometimes it pays to make people aware that there are other options.
Sorry if this message bothers you, please feel free to ignore me.
Martin
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