I’m not venting, just totally amazed at the reasoning. Folks need to think beyond the company sensitive information argument. I can think of a hundred statements that give a sense of progress without any company sensitive details. Statements,that require no effort. How about for starters just saying in a standalone post “We have made good progress this month. Wish we could elaborate. You will be happy with where we’re going.” It’s not great, and is actually pretty lazy, but it’s far more than “Nothing to report” and would seem to be PR-101.
12 Likes
One of the questions I had listed for the Q&A which they skipped over was “what do you see as the biggest hurdle in the completion of the glowforge”. That is one question I would love to hear answered (and when they pass the hurdle, repeat!).
It would also be nice just to hear what theyve been working on in the last X amount of time, and maybe show us some before and after so we can see what kinda progress they are making. Not only will it ease the minds of those waiting soooo long for their lasers, but it will also give us some cool insight into what they are working on, not to mention maybe some empathy and understanding for things they got taken care of that had been a struggle. My days are generally spent solving problems and being pretty happy about the progress Ive made and things I learned in the process. I know there are a lot of people here who would enjoy hearing these things from the glowforge crew.
4 Likes
I have to agree & disagree 
Certainly things like “the new power supply design is working great” or “still working on the variable power engraving but have wrapped up auto-registration of material location on the bed”, etc. would seem to be quick and easy and make everyone feel better. Nothing needs to be mentioned that’s not in the public feature list already so no need to worry about alerting the competition. Silence on those items intending to keep the competition in the dark would seem to be a strategic error - it would assume competitors will only copy features after they’re delivered or confirmed for delivery vs them assuming that everything GF has announced will come true. If I were a laser builder I’d be betting GF succeeds and position appropriately. Anything less would leave GF with a year + head start. Ain’t gonna happen.
Now to the no effort part. That’s where Dan pointed out an announcement of any type entails more than just the announcement itself - it’s the follow up and questions and forum posts etc. Can’t ignore that stuff because erroneous info in a post or blog needs to be assessed to see if it’s okay to leave uncorrected or if doing so would leave the wrong impression and cause other issues (like spikes in refunds) that also consume time.
Of course, I’m of the opinion that frequent little status notes like mine above would reduce or eliminate the second issue. That problem is exacerbated by the silence and a continuous drip-feed would provide enough real info to mitigate the supposition that comes from parsing rare proclamations from Olympus.
None of that matters though. Dan has been crystal clear in his intent to provide as little progress information as possible. We live with that or we walk away. Our choice. No sense bemoaning the fact that the leopard won’t change its spots into stripes and become a tiger.
4 Likes
Maybe, just maybe, Dan could let JKopel go into the offices and do a little Q&A video plus show and tell of what people are working on.
He isn’t staff so it wouldn’t be their time doing the video besides a “Hi. I am such and such and working on this and going great.” and JKopel lives in the area, and already signed NDA’s and such.
Just an idea for a ‘meaty’ sort of update thing that might assure some people for a couple months 
4 Likes
I’d like to respond and cheer everyone up, but I don’t think there is anything new to add to the discussion. The Glowforge culture regarding dissemination of development progress is dissatisfying to many but it’s not going to change. I can understand their reasons but I can’t think of anything I could say that would convince them to change their culture. Our only agency in this issue is asking for a refund. The other thing we do have some control over is our participation in the forum. But if the VIPs went on strike, we’d lose our Regular status at some point in time. That would be a little too passive aggressive for my taste, but I had to mention it since it’s been on my mind lately.
One thing I noted is that there have been six new hires since Rita. This is open to interpretation, but my reading of that is that the caliber of the folks who were just hired are such that they must have seen some clear proof that the company is on the right track. Why else would they take the job?
That’s certainly a plausible interpretation of the hires, but not proof that we are going to get what was advertised in the promos and what we paid money for.
As far as the MakerFaire excursion: that makes sense for attitude adjustment for the team. If giving updates is distracting to the team, fair enough point. Doesn’t mean you can’t have any development news shared at some interval and leave it to @dan and @bailey to manage the static.
Great to have a new post from laser Thursday. Would love to see more and a variety of things shared. Pics or video, doesn’t matter.
5 Likes
The latest on shipping (new: we're now shipping) actually has changed. The original post was back in Feb. It has been updated 6 times up to April 19th with the newest timeline when Delay-Gate happened.
1 Like
None of that matters though. Dan has been crystal clear in his intent to provide as little progress information as possible. We live with that or we walk away. Our choice. No sense bemoaning the fact that the leopard won’t change its spots into stripes and become a tiger.
But that is actually exactly the point. You can ask that of him. We are the customers. @Dan’s attitude of either you accept things exactly as they are or walk away is a very poor attitude. A good CEO has a way better communicating style than “thanks for you money, no we aren’t going to partner with you our customer, don’t like that? here is a refund”. We all bought into this based on his reputation, and because of that when a major stumbling block happened, he cashed in our good will, which while gambling we all were willing to give.
Ok but without some sort of updates, the good will account is now way more empty. If for instance he needed to delay even further or an announced feature isn’t going to happen within a reasonable time frame, since he has continued to not engage in a substantial way to build up the account again (yes, he is a great participant in all sorts of non-glowforge related chatting, regarding lasers in general, etc, but that’s not the same), he will have a very angry customer base. Since I assume Dan hopes to sell more GFs after initial batch are delivered, it will be based on word of mouth/goodwill of the customers. This is more than an academic issue, since if GF isn’t able to further sales after the initial bolus, then either they make something else to support the company, change the business model and we all now have to pay for the online service or we all have a nice GF shaped planter…
Now in truth he doesn’t need complex posts to show us that the company is moving along. Heck post pictures of the company picnic where people are putting their drinks on GF cut coasters, show the office admin stacking office supplies on GF made shelving, make educational posts (here is how to understand kerfs and lasers), talk about design issues when designing for lasers for different uses (like hey when selecting card stock for making creating cards did you know…). All of these reveal nothing of GF details (we know it can make coasters conceptually like any laser cutter) but show that in fact there is a functioning GF somewhere actually doing something cool and getting some thoughts back into the community. It’s really not that hard (and in truth you can hire some interns to make most of these posts)
4 Likes
I agree with everything you said. The bottom line though is we have asked. People continue to ask. His answer has been the same since the first ask. We can all argue why that’s dumb, but it’s his prerogative. He’s been really clear that he doesn’t care about all of the requests or arguments why he should accede to them.
Your point about cashing in on goodwill back in April and not rebuilding that “bank account” may be a blind spot. I expect if he needs to make another withdrawal from the goodwill account he may find himself surprised that he’s overdrawn all because he didn’t want to post updates. Of course if he doesn’t have another bad news day then he’ll not need the balance.
I did see an interesting stat in a post yesterday (I think). There was an activity announcement post on average every 2 weeks from Feb thru Delay Day.
Since then it’s all quiet on the western front.
2 Likes
I guess the ones at the Makerfaire were not functioning enough to count as working?
2 Likes
I think the biggest thing for me is that I need to see progress. If theres another delay, Ive just lost another 6 months of being unable to use my money, and not having a laser to use. Thats not something I want to have to deal with again. I want to be able to make an educated decision based on the information they provide. However, there is no information being provided. I have an incentive to stay and wait for the glowforge, which is the referral bonuses. Apart from that Im losing out not only in money, but in experience, productivity, and whatever time ive already sunk into glowforge.
You’d think with the delay, we’d also see a lot more beta units in the wild, but theres still just the one, so I think most people have given up any hope of that happening as well, which is a major bummer. Either way, my enthusiasm levels about the glowforge have waned drastically. I even feel slightly embarrassed bringing it up in conversation.
I use my laser cutter almost every single day. When I get to a part where I think “hey this would be easier with a glowforge”, I no longer think that in excitement or anticipation, but in frustration and disappointment. I check the forums to try to ease that, but seeing nothing new or exciting, or any updates only makes those feelings stronger.
6 Likes
I hear you…and tend to agree…with two lasers already, its getting a bit hard to justify this third…but the hopes that the software and camera interface works as promised, as well as the auto focus, keeps me in the game for the time being…
Plus if I cancelled, I would lose access to this awesome forum…
5 Likes
Another 6 month delay and the $5K I’ve got sitting with GF would be better off spent building a 1200x900 100W machine 
1 Like
Well, here’s the thing: everything isn’t cool. Every week we find a new problem, from annoying to terrifying.
Then every week we fix the previous week’s problem.
It’s an all-consuming rollercoaster, the details of which span everything from the ergonomics of the packing foam when you unbox your Glowforge to the firmware updater.
So cool? Definitely not the word I would choose.
We’re in the long, slow slog right now of finishing things, retesting them, and then ‘finishing’ some more. We’re taking subsystems that have been working for months and getting them polished together, then breaking them, then fixing them. We’re getting 3rd party tests back and revising our designs to get through them. Personally I’m rolling up my sleeves and spending hours each day reviewing specs, test results, factory reports, purchasing information, and other minutia because at this point it’s the best way I can help move the ball forward. (I’m visiting family this weekend but snuck away for a few hours to do more of that, and reply to this thread). It’s the two-steps-forward-one-step-back stage, and it’s brutally hard on everyone at the company.
The bottom line is that I have to optimize for something. I could optimize for the journey, or for the destination. You know how I’ve made that call. I may be incorrect, and I worry about that every day. If I’m wrong it nullifies the incredible hard work that my team puts in for you, every day. You may also be right that I’m missing some terribly obvious way I could make everyone in the forums happy without delaying the product, tipping off our competitors, and unleashing a torrent of support inquiries that we’ll have to focus on instead of working towards launch.
From the information I have, I don’t see it, though.
We’ll get your Glowforges built, wonderfully, the most quickly we can by keeping our focus on the goal.
That said, I’ll step back a bit, talk to everyone on the team, and see if there’s some information we can write up and share. I hear you loud and clear. I don’t know if we can meet your needs without risking everyone’s product to do so, but I’ll do my best either way.
38 Likes
There’s a story from a truck manufacturer that had spent millions on developing a new model of truck. The composite hoods could take hits from a sledge hammer and had hundreds of thousands of miles of shake test experience with no failures. Molds for mass production had been made, suppliers for all the materials were lined up, pre-orders from dealerships already in, and the cross-county introduction tour already scheduled out through the year. One of the engineers bent over to fix his shoe, and put a hand out to steady himself. The hood cracked. Tearing it all down, they found that one of the many layers of in the hood had two sheets of material that abutted exactly at the place the engineer placed his hand, creating the potential weakness. Front impact tests, drop tests, a thousand hood slams, and nothing could recreate the stresses of pushing against the hood at that exact place. They fixed it, but it’s been a huge example to that OE that they need to poke every little spot on their trucks.
I’m glad the Glowforge team is pushing every bit of their machine. I hope I’ll end up getting the reliable, innovative workhorse which I’m expecting. Until then, back to work.
14 Likes
That is exactly the #1 thing that has been keeping me in and as much as I love you all, I don’t know how long that will suffice.
4 Likes
That is all we can ask. I and I know a lot of others totally appreciate that you will do just that, step back and ask your team. If the answer is no, then we will have to suck it up and go with that, but if there is something that can be shared without jeopardising security, then great!
4 Likes
You may think I’m suggesting more than I am. I have a picture above my desk that shows a circular never ending flowchart with the words Build -> Test -> Fix -> Test -> etc. It’s a development reality not experienced by consumers. I wouldn’t expect any company to share day to day progress and setbacks. The answer is not necessarily finding status info to put in a monthly announcement. Don’t think like an engineer. Think like a PR person. Provide feel good info if that’s all you can come up with. Somewhere in a regularly provided progress post you might only say, “The S/W team had a great day with a problem that has plagued us for weeks.” You’re already good at not answering follow-up questions. So just don’t. And it would be much better if good news were posted in a locked thread in the Announcements section so everyone would see it.
At some point you will have a key employee leave. Maybe only because a partner moved across the country. But the natural reaction of the customers will be, something is wrong. The emotional bank needs a buffer. (BTW: personally I want details, but I also want to be looking over the shoulder of your Engineers and that ain’t gonna happen while there’s still a lock on the door.)
10 Likes
That’s the approach I use with clients and most internal news to employees not involved in specific projects. None of them care about the sausage making. They don’t care that it’s 2 steps forward and 1 back. They care that it’s net 1 step forward. It’s not productive for my build teams or the clients to spend a lot of time talking about steps back because at the end of the day all that matters is progress toward the goal and is the forward velocity on target with delivery projections.
We never discuss outside a build team anything non-catastrophic that sets us back within 72 hours of discovery. That gives us sufficient time to analyze the problem, identify potential solutions (or pathways to find the solution) and assess impacts. Most times that means we never discuss externally any setbacks because we find and implement solutions and mitigate impact. That keeps a lot of noise and churn from distracting the teams.
Even issues that may impact deliveries aren’t raised until we understand options, solutions and impacts. It’s pointless to raise an issue to people who can’t help resolve it until you can provide them actionable intelligence. Otherwise you just create angst.
But when an issue is impactful then we can have an intelligent discussion of options and impacts and get everyone involved. That gives them ownership of the solution and actually helps increase the goodwill bank. Regular reporting of the 1 step forwards also helps in that regard. Those 1 step reports can be as Rpegg noted “we solved this gnarly problem” which lets them see that it’s not all unicorns and rainbows and problems occur but we’re addressing them. That way if something does finally escalate out of the build team all the parties know we’ve done everything we could and we don’t waste time with “did you try the black jack on the red queen” simplistic solutions that otherwise is where people start. They know we’ve covered those and we have an issue that requires their help or forbearance. One step forward reporting isn’t hard and it buys an enormous amount of buy-in and sense of ownership that helps when something does go south.
4 Likes
Here is a way of thinking of this situation…(to me anyway) @dan is the CEO of Glowforge…neh? He has more than one title. When I worked in a factory for 40 years, our CEO, was a man of many identities. I got to see my CEO maybe, twenty times (considering he was just across the street).and maybe got to say hello fewer. That being said,I did email him a couple of times for request of info I needed, and got “NO” response at all. Is this his fault ? or his Secretaries? Dunno…but @ dan seems to care enough about us and his teams to answer some of our questions/points, personally. I don’t know nor have I heard of any major startups or large company CEO’s doing this. Maybe I’m wrong…maybe I am foolish…I bought this product…not because of reputation…but because I wanted to LEARN something new in my life…don’t care how long it takes. Learning and being with you guys is all I care about. Some I may disagree with but all-in-all , I just enjoy this time with all of you…you make me laugh.
4 Likes
That sounds amazingly stressful … but FWIW, I would find an update along those lines to be far more reassuring than the silence that we’ve seen thus far. As an artisan/designer, I can totally relate to the "Build → Test → Fix → Test → etc. " process, and such news would not be discouraging to me at all - in fact, I would read it as a positive sign of progress.
To be clear, I don’t expect you to divulge proprietary secrets or detailed minutiae - but a once a month update would go a long way to retain my trust and interest. It would seem that I’m not alone, as this request has come up again and again … and frankly, when I see requests for updates that are met with silence by the GF staff, it raises some big red flags for me. While it’s great that so many other GF customers weigh in on those threads, at the end of the day, those opinions are irrelevant to me; I need to see replies from the folks who will be accountable if this thing goes south.
GF has been posting a lot more sponsored ads on social media, geared toward attracting new customers. It would seem that there’s a staff member or intern responsible for answering all of the questions that come up on those ads, so it’s difficult for me to understand why that same person cannot be responsible for a once a month update for your existing customers. I get that this will entail additional time and energy from your team (trust me, I’ve been there and I really do get it) but given that so many of your customers have echoed this request, I hope you’ll agree that it’s worth the time and energy to respond in a meaningful way.
As a disclaimer of sorts, these comments aren’t meant to be antagonistic. Online communication can be so limiting, and often our words do not read as intended. I was so excited about this product, and I’m trying very hard to hang in and stay hopeful … but like so many others, my finger has been hovering on the “cancel” button for some time now. Regular, reasonable updates and a genuine response to this ongoing community request would work wonders in terms of preserving my trust and business.
9 Likes