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Pining for the Fjords…
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Not saying this isnt true but this is the argument that has been made after every delay.
We are privy to that info because this is a new company that has delayed its product multiple times. They were closed lipped about details in the beginning before all the delays and disgruntled buyers. Now they share more info in the form of monthly updates and banner mastheads.
We may not get this sort of information on other things we buy but we also don’t wait for years to get it and we don’t have to ask for clarification on basic English words like shipping and deadline.
I think anyone who sees through eyes of distrust and fear will always see those things, and will always place that on what they see, and will find rationale for seeing things that way. People will call it logical or rational or reasonable or pragmatic or statistically proven, and it is the only possible answer/way/reason/truth and tell their fears to the world so that maybe, just maybe their vision of things will come to pass.
I really like to be around – both physically and virtually – people who try to see with better eyes than that. Call us cheerleaders or Pollyanna’s or hopeless optimists or trusting fools or blind do-gooders or glass-half-fullers - as so many have shown including Viktor Frankl in Man’s Search for Meaning, those who see the world with those eyes are the hope for us all.
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When does it become acceptable to see things negatively and have it not be out of fear or distrust? Surely there is a threshold? One delay isnt enough to doubt things are going well but is 4 delays? 10 delays? You interpret it as being negative and justifying that no matter what but isn’t there a point where you truly are just being practical and honest? If they go dark for a year and never update us, than am I operating out of fear if I call them dishonest or doubt their timelines?
This is ridiculous. Youre imparting a value judgement based on nothing. Its not “better” eyes to see things positively in all situations. Its just a different perspective. There are positive and negative attributes to BOTH outlooks.
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TLDR version:
shipping is the process.
shipment is the result.
Glowforge has begun shipping. Your shipment will be arriving when the process has reached its natural conclusion.
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It’s their first product ever and it’s like building and shipping a pair of mating manatees.
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But you have been provided with @dan’s definition of shipping. I have no problem with substituting the words shipping and processing in my head. It’s really not the toughest thing I’ve ever been asked to do.
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So it’s gravity. Not gonna change. Not unique to GF either. Since we’ve all been bitching about it for 2 years and they have changed other communications but not these, then we can assume they’re not going to change this one.
Because we’re not involved in the process - we wait until the product is on the street (and then we pay whatever the market or retail rate is). I have no idea how late or how many iterations of my car were involved before Lexus released it. I expect it was substantial (I know it takes 40 hours of handwork just for the steering wheel - great YouTube video on it 
). I bet they set and missed lots of delivery milestones. I never saw those so don’t think it was late. It probably was. I also did not get a discount for waiting through their development process though.
Except for Kickstarters/crowdfunding types of projects I don’t typically buy anything until it’s done so I have no idea how much work went into the delivery or how many times they missed their dates. For Kickstarters & crowdfunding projects I have seen the process and know that they almost all follow the same pattern. Some never deliver at all despite taking my money. Some never deliver but provide refunds. The rest are almost all late with multiple resets in between the funding and the delivery. One was on time.
Whether we want to believe it or not there are real business reasons that drive decisions like the ones GF makes. I know this is true because I’m regularly in similar situations with the product development we do and am forced to make similar ones. Of course I could choose to believe that there are no valid business reasons and it’s because of malice and deception but then I’d be ignoring my own experience and I’d be wrong.
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99 years after the last unfulfilled promise it becomes acceptable to allow the specters of knowing the meanings of words and making inferences based on past action to fog one’s euphoric outlook.
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It doesn’t feel like a cashflow problem, but a supply chain problem. Since the product is new and they keep finding issues with components, I think they are doing small batch orders of parts, building units and then doing quality testing. Hence the ramp on production.
Just an educated guess though…
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I agree with much of what you said in your post, and I applaud you for being able to state your dissatisfaction in a reasonable and respectful way. No entitled demands, no character assassination - just a direct statement of what’s bothering you and where you’d like to see improvement.
Kudos, this kind of frank-yet-respectful communication helps to further the dialogue. Accusations, demands and insults only add to the existing stress level. So just to beat another horse - it’s not what you say, but how you say it.
Also, I’d really like to echo this point:
Another delay would be distressing, but I’ll be more understanding if that information comes in a timely fashion. I remember reading all of the updates last fall, and everything was “happy happy joy joy” up until the last minute. I don’t remember what tipped me off, but for at least 2 weeks before they announced the delay I had a sinking feeling that something was wrong. I don’t want to ride that roller coaster again, TYVM. If there’s to be another delay, please announce it as soon as you know rather than waiting until the last possible moment.
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Hilarious…
Maybe they will since they’ve addressed communication issues before. Doesn’t really matter either way. It’s still relevant (regardless of it’s annoyance) info to discuss. Even if only to display that lack of interest in addressing customer issues.
Most of us aren’t involved in THIS process. Many, like me, thought we were preordering a finished product (as marketed imo)
The whole “crowdfunding” is irrelevant to me as this argument shifts all the time on this forum depending on which side is needed to support an argument. I’ve seen the same people on this forum argue both sides when it syited them. That we are not entitled to updates as we just invested in a startup and delays are expected… then later argued that we aren’t entitled to progress updates (the kind investors are privy to) because we are just customers who preordered a product.
No one is attributing it to malice. I’m aware they have their reasons… I’m aware they have probably weighed a lot of options based on their own interests. That doesn’t mean some of their practices arent dishonest. Their intentions aren’t really relevant as far as I’m concerned.
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But we are. We’re seeing them through the whole create/build/ship process. We aren’t privy to a ton of details but we’re seeing infinitely more information than we see when we buy a car or a shirt or a TV or anything else.
We all know it wasn’t ready two years ago despite the marketing. That marketing can excuse anyone who was reasonably upset to find out the unit wasn’t nearly ready to ship two years ago, now there’s no reason to still be here and still arguing that point. Anyone still waiting has known for nearly two years that it’s been a development project. How long each of us is willing to wait is going to be different, but none the whole “I thought I was buying a finished product” argument is disingenuous - we’ve known longer that it wasn’t than we thought it was.
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Only because of the ridiculous delays.
We know that now. We didn’t then. And no one is arguing the marketing. No one is mad at it currently either. Theyre mad at the dishonesty in communication. The marketing is only even brought up to illustrate a general trend in dishonest communication.
We are waiting on a product we ordered. People arent mad that their seeing each step (build/ship). Theyre mad that the steps are represented incorrectly. They’re mad that “build/ship” apparently meant “design/create/build/ship” in the beginning and even now that “ship” apparently means “build/ship”.
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Yes, I have, but has everyone else read that comment buried in a thread on an unrelated topic?
Besides, why do we need to be provided with Dan’s definition, rather than using the standard, commonly accepted one?
I’m reminded of Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass: “When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
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Thanks Drea, I don’t want to attack @dan or anyone, I just want a bit of open and honest communication. I respect the opinion people who don’t care about delays, but some of us do care. I would rather know now that the Glowforge will be delayed another x months. This gives me the information I need to decided if I want to wait further. Not the best outcome for the company, if people cancel their orders, but it at least keeps their reputation intact for future purchases with the customer.
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Exactly. Succinct and perfectly clear. 
Being fortunate enough to obtain the product for $1,000 less than it’s currently selling at for hanging on for the duration of the development process allows me to happily wait it out. (yes, easily said for a guy who has use of a machine) but even if I didn’t I would still be here, and still be happy about it - just not as happy 
There was a good reason for the delay(s). We have seen the result of FSL rushing an emulation of glowforge to market. Their marketing looked really good on paper too.
Personally, I am grateful the company decided to bear the brunt of criticism for missing their projected timeline(s) and chose to deliver me a better product. It hurt them, and helped me. That sticks out.
I will add my name to those who would like to know sooner than later if a delay is eminent.
Hopefully everyone feels a little better being able to voice and vent their frustration here. If it is still wrapping you up tight, I submit there are better ways to spend your time and emotional energy.
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Let’s be clear, I think everyone here is happy they are making a quality product and not shipping out something that is broken. But, that has nothing to do with being honest with the customers.
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