Is my lid camera misaligned?

Ok then, I’ll crawl back under my rock now.

I just don’t get why you guys keep being stubborn about this. I consider the Pro to be a ‘prosumer’ product, not a toy. It’s like you decided at the start that camera alignment is the way to go because of the funky trace function. But you haven’t solved accuracy alignment with the camera and now it’s like, it’s a unique feature in lasers so we’re sticking with it, whether it works or not. But it doen not have to be either-or. We could have both. There are other ways to create a reliable homing point.

Many of your backers want this feature, Dan. Try not to be dimissive of it. It’s not an unreasonable feature on a laser machine. It’s one that enhances its functionality significantly.

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I’m not - the system doesn’t have a reference corner like you’re asking for. If you wanted to solve the problem of “put this thing in a precise location” or “align things the same every time” or any other particular use case, we’ve done lots of work and have lots more to do.

But if you want that specific implementation of that solution, I can’t help you, and I want you to have a solution that meets your needs.

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Much more sensible response, thanks.

But help us then - what are those things? There are numerous threads and I imagine thousands of posts about this, most of the speculative, time-wasting kind. Could you please disseminate for us what is the current best practice for achieving accurate repeatability in the absence of a known 0,0 point on the bed?

Many thanks

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Yes, but not very precisely on the bed.

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Numeric positioning/scaling/rotation in the gfui would work wonders here. I’m hoping we see that soon =)

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Is that something that’s even being considered? I didn’t think it is.

I am wondering how much the decision to do only camera alignment is bolstered by manufacturing and assembly and calibration. I was watching some videos of other laser brands in operation and looked at the beds of the lasers and the registration setup. Not at all dismissing the value of having dialed in hard margins and a physical 0,0 but wondering how much that would add to the cost of production to get them accurate. I can see making the decision: we are going with camera alignment and we are just going to keep working on the software to keep improving. Perhaps there were trade offs. Certainly having the lid close accurately and reliably to allow the camera to register well is also a crucial component that takes time. Just thinking out loud.

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I think part of the argument here arises from different perceptions of how something like this is supposed to work. For those well versed in CNC fabrication and those type of machines, I’m sure the lack of a 0,0 coordinate is frustrating. For me, where my use cases aren’t as fabrication centric, so my tolerances are higher, I like the visual alignment. Easier for me in many ways. I think this is where we can see how the Glowforge when through a completely different development process than other commercial lasers, by people coming in from a different angle, looking at a different market. Not saying those who would like the 0,0 configuration are wrong, or that wouldn’t be helpful at times, but I can see how the development process went off in a different direction.

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Limit switches don’t normally need to be super accurately positioned, they just have to repeatable and then they define the origin and everything works from there.

However if the origin was defined by switches and fixed relative to the frame, you would still need to work out where the lid camera is relative to that.

I am surprised they didn’t put targets for the head cam in the corners to reference the lid camera to the frame. But that would eat some build area.

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If the camera can detect edges, position of material on the bed wouldn’t matter. Even angle wouldn’t matter. The software could just adjust x and y planes accordingly. And if it registers incorrectly, we should be able to manually specify x and y planes simply by dragging lines on the screen.

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So you don’t necessarily have to have a physical margin, like an angle of two sides to butt material against. You just need something that touches off zero on the surface of the material or bed? Or you just enter the coordinates in because the head already knows where it is in relation to the limit switches?

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With my mill I drill holes in the MDF waste board and screw 3D printed L and I pieces in three corners. I then know exactly where the sheet will end up and shift the origin to that.

I also have wigglers that I can use to touch off an arbitrary placed object to find its edges.

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That’s the key - the frustrated folks are that way because of their history with a particular solution to the problem of precise placement and repeatability so it gets expressed in terms of the solution rather than the problem. I have that issue with my team all the time - either they or the client say “we need to do this thing”, not “we need to solve this issue” so they’re coming to the table with solutions posing as problems and that boxes in their thinking. We have to work at saying “what’s the issue or use case we’re trying to address” and then we can figure out ways to address it and the solution that’s best often isn’t the one we see everyone else using.

I understand both views because I’m used to the defined 0,0 on my other lasers (and 0,0,0 on the Shopbot) but I’m open to alternate solutions to the problem.

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I[quote=“jamesdhatch, post:84, topic:8716”]
We have to work at saying “what’s the issue or use case we’re trying to address” and then we can figure out ways to address it and the solution that’s best often isn’t the one we see everyone else using.
[/quote]

This is exactly it. As I learned from a great friend and teacher in a more social/relationship/ life structure fashion, it is “Essence vs. Form”. A method to establish exact coordinate location is the Form, but what is truly being sought is the Essence of ease of placement for their jobs. We often think a particular Form is what we want, when in truth there is quite often a number of forms that will lead us to that Essence. :blush:

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Definitely being considered.

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It depends on the project. Could you describe the use case you’re concerned with? I’ll give you the state of the art now (and we have lots of improvements in the hopper for later).

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That is some of the best news Ive heard in a long time! This will save sooo much agony, and allow for so much more precision! I know its not final, but im going to say thank you now just because its such a relief to even hear that!

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May I suggest consideration only up to the point where the answer is “Yes.” :wink:

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Sure, I’ll use the same example I’ve used before, that of a steel ruler. Unlike the GF one:

  1. This one’s markings start at the very edge of the material on 3 sides, and;
  2. It’s made of a material that the GF cannot cut (so we have no bleed to cut away like with timber).

Example: https://www.jetpens.com/Kokuyo-Stainless-Steel-Ruler-15-cm/pd/11291

Oh, and we want to fill the bed with them.

Looking forward to hearing how to best tackle that one without a known 0,0?

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I think the answer here is that we will have to build our own 0,0 jig. Its one of the main things I am wanting to accomplish first when I get my prod unit. This along with numeric positioning will allow me to skip making a jig for so many things, as it will basically be a corner in the top left to push everything into and measure against.

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