RE: We’ll release a GPL-licensed firmware for Glowforge

[sirus20x6]

@Dunfee

I don’t think replicating the cloud software so the glowforge could be used offline would be an easy task. This is something that the glowforge software team has been working on for ages.

I guess it could be the first step in setting up wireshark so you could monitor network traffic to see how everything works together and EVENTUALLY get there with a group of software developers in their free time but from what I remember being said the firmware is pretty basic.

is there a wireshark dump out in the wild? if not what if traffic is encrypted

[rpegg]

Don’t mistake releasing a copy of the firmware with open source. Don’t remember them saying anything more than promising a single version. Rather have a more mature version than what they have today. For example, want it to include control over the head camera first.

[Dunfee]

I doubt there is a wireshark dump out there right now.
I am a software developer at my day job and I do get why people are so privacy concerned, but what it comes down to is right now the firmware is most likely still being changed frequently where the cloud software is still in beta. When that all becomes more stable I can see them releasing the firmware. Then those who have the knowhow and free time can start on an offline version of the Glowforge UI.

Most people have stable internet, Glowforge as a company is doing well as far as we know, and I’d trust Google’s server stability over most companies. Because of that I think the GF staff is more concerned with building the advertised features and delivering product.

[sirus20x6]

@Dunfee

I doubt there is a wireshark dump out there right now.

I am a software developer at my day job and I do get why people are so privacy concerned, but what it comes down to is right now the firmware is most likely still being changed frequently where the cloud software is still in beta. When that all becomes more stable I can see them releasing the firmware. Then those who have the knowhow and free time can start on an offline version of the Glowforge UI.

Most people have stable internet, Glowforge as a company is doing well as far as we know, and I’d trust Google’s server stability over most companies. Because of that I think the GF staff is more concerned with building the advertised features and delivering product.

I’m in embedded systems engineering and while my specialty is BCI I’ve done work on CNC/3D printer code before and I don’t even care if it has so many bugs in it that it doesn’t compile. I started making a gui to do client side prints this morning and already i’m at a point where no more work can be done without knowing how to talk to the thing.

I also don’t know why anyone would even mention waiting when it was clearly stated

…
here’s a commitment we’ll make right now: When we launch Glowforge, we’ll also release a copy of the firmware under GPL.
…

–dan

[sirus20x6]

@rpegg

Don’t mistake releasing a copy of the firmware with open source. Don’t remember them saying anything more than promising a single version. Rather have a more mature version than what they have today. For example, want it to include control over the head camera first.

as for open source the link used to be

http://blog.glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-for-glowforge

[PFI-Guy]

@sirus20x6

1: We don’t know what the device is doing and what information it’s collecting or sending to / from Glowforge’s servers.

2: IOT security is a big mess nowadays and even internet connected teapots are being loaded with malware and zombie processes that steal your electricity to run whatever software the malware author intends which includes trying to infect other devices, running DDOS attacks, collecting network traffic, etc

3: As Dan has said about his cloud connected CNC router that got shut down it’s important our multi-thousand dollar tool doesn’t turn into a paper weight if their cloud goes down

4: I don’t want to depend on an internet connection to use my device. I literally have to tether a cell phone in my window to get internet and it is not reliable.

5: I wish to decouple my device from being forced to use any one else’s services.

6: When people read they were going to opensource their firmware on launch it may have been a deciding factor in making the purchase. Open source is very important to a lot of people.

7: Because they said they would

You may have made a purchase foolishly then.

It has been stated since day one, you need an internet connection, it is cloud based, it requires the Glowforge servers and if Glowforge ever implodes, they will have released the firmware (which is not a day one timetable nor guaranteed to be fully open sourced).

Bring your ideas to life.

With Point 3, are you sure he wasn’t talking about a wireless router he backed as a Kickstarter:

Skydog

Some years ago I backed the Skydog router on Kickstarter. It’s a wifi router that promised to be easier to administer. Now, three years later, they’re shutting off the cloud service. They’re not opening the firmware, so my router is turning into a brick. I’m sharing this here because I know it’s a fear people have about the Glowforge cloud ecosystem. It’s the reason that we made our open firmware announcement - so even in the very worst case, where Glowforge servers cease to exist, your inv…

Point number 7, Dan has stated recently on the time table:

@dan

I don’t have a date for you right now.

and

@dan

We plan to maintain the cloud service for many years, and allow for customers to modify their firmware in the future should the cloud service become unavailable.

Unless one is in the computer and network security fields, points 2 and 6 kinda don’t make a strong reason for purchasing a Glowforge.

[sirus20x6]

@PFI-Guy

Point number 7, Dan has stated recently on the time table:

Discussion of the September 2017 update

Dan had already stated on the time table

…
here’s a commitment we’ll make right now: When we launch Glowforge, we’ll also release a copy of the firmware under GPL.
…

–dan

@PFI-Guy

It has been stated since day one, you need an internet connection

The opposite has been stated

@dan

Some years ago I backed the Skydog router on Kickstarter. It’s a wifi router that promised to be easier to administer. Now, three years later, they’re shutting off the cloud service. They’re not opening the firmware, so my router is turning into a brick.

I’m sharing this here because I know it’s a fear people have about the Glowforge cloud ecosystem. It’s the reason that we made our open firmware announcement - so even in the very worst case, where Glowforge servers cease to exist, your investment will be protected.

Discussion welcome!

@PFI-Guy

which is not a day one timetable

Yes they said when they launch

…
here’s a commitment we’ll make right now: When we launch Glowforge, we’ll also release a copy of the firmware under GPL.
…

–dan

@PFI-Guy

nor guaranteed to be fully open sourced

The original link had the words open source in it

http://blog.glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-for-glowforge

I’m trying to find a cached copy of the original page now.

@PFI-Guy

With Point 3, are you sure he wasn’t talking about a wireless router he backed as a Kickstarter:

You are correct I don’t know why I assumed CNC router.

@PFI-Guy

Unless one is in the computer and network security fields, points 2 and 6 kinda don’t make a strong reason for purchasing a Glowforge.

I work in BCI prosthetics, embedded security is a huge concern in my field.

[sirus20x6]

@jrnelson

i think the url was simply changed

We'll release a GPL-licensed firmware for Glowforge - The Glowforge Blog

It was changed the point was the url used to have the words open source in it

[markwal]

I think it’s reasonable for folks to expect Glowforge to stand by their word on this one. It was stated strongly and some folks were swayed by this. We probably don’t need to browbeat people into a different point of view or to cancel. (And it’s unlikely to work anyway.)

I would point out, however, that it’s likely Glowforge’s definition of “launch” is different than most English speakers would expect. So you may not get any firmware sources any time soon.

[PFI-Guy]

The forum has that same post at:

We’ll release a GPL-licensed firmware for Glowforge

We’ve heard a ton of amazing feedback from our community in the 12 or so hours since Glowforge has launched, and one question stood out to us: what if you buy a Glowforge, and something happens to us? This came up both in person at MakerCon while we demo’d the unit and online, particularly in the lively discussion on Hacker News. Because Glowforge is powered by the cloud, it’s an important question. Long term, we’re working on some cool solutions, but short term, here’s a commitment we’ll make …

[markwal]

I think that’s a pretty clear indication is that the best case scenario here no longer includes open source. Best case is now a GPL licensed release of the source code at a point in time. One implies maintainers, pull requests, keeping current, etc. The other does not.

[sirus20x6]

@PFI-Guy

The forum has that same post at:

Yes the point was the original link said open source in it

[sirus20x6]

@jrnelson

sure, my point was mostly that it’s redundant to need ‘open source’ since they directly reference the gpl

It’s not redundant it has two different meanings.
GPL firmware means a compiled binary blob is released under the GPL license.

open source GPL firmware means the source code itself which is how the binary blob is compiled is available.

literally means the source code is open

[sirus20x6]

@markwal

I think that’s a pretty clear indication is that the best case scenario here no longer includes open source. Best case is now a GPL licensed release of the source code at a point in time. One implies maintainers, pull requests, keeping current, etc. The other does not.

a GPL release of the source code would be a flavor of open source. Open source doesn’t imply maintainers or anything like that.

[markwal]

Yes, but some folks might expect the firmware sources to be kept current and the old link weakly implied that. The new link and title are more clear on specifically what is promised.

[sirus20x6]

@markwal

Yes, but some folks might expect the firmware sources to be kept current and the old link weakly implied that. The new link and title are more clear on specifically what is promised.

No it doesn’t imply that although it would be nice. The change is clearly a backpedal on the source code being open.

[markwal]

Yep. That’s what I was trying to say. Clearly a backpedal. But I was attempting to give some color about backpedal from what.

[Hirudin]

I’ll be shocked if Glowforge releases a functional, offline-capable firmware at any point. They haven’t been too keen on losing control over any aspect of the product we funded for them, and there’s absolutely no reason to think they’re going to loosen the reins any time soon.

[scatterbrains]

Seems like people’s desired priorities for Glowforge change when their machine is on the way. It’ll happen. We’ve had to wait this long for machines to start shipping. We can wait a little longer for this firmware.

[sirus20x6]

@Hirudin

I’ll be shocked if Glowforge releases a functional, offline-capable firmware at any point. They haven’t been too keen on losing control over any aspect of the product we funded for them, and there’s absolutely no reason to think they’re going to loosen the reins any time soon.

Well except because they said they would, but that doesn’t mean much. It’s understandable they wouldn’t want to because the catalog and proofgrade store are the real money makers, not the glowforge.