Recovering from PVC Cuts and Engraves

Beyond the Manual
124

@chris1

I didn’t really have a point … other than to say that if @MyDogsThinkImCrazy is doing a case study … it seems she would know more about R2R than most … not saying that you don’t know - but a case study is a pretty significant thing…that involves A LOT of research and analysis - and then to have to present that research and analysis to others and break it down in a way that they can understand … you can see why I said:

The fact that she said to you:

Now carries a little more weight behind it…and possibly…instead of explaining herself and her understanding of R2R (which we now know is probably MASSIVE) … she seems to be suggesting that you might have missed the mark with your post and then went on to suggest where you might find a better understanding of R2R …

because if @MyDogsThinkImCrazy were to try and explain to you her understanding of R2R…it would probably make your head spin and take hours to type into this little box…

That was my point and that is why I said what I said. I was being more facetious than anything.

It was not meant in a malicious way.

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125

The first step is to admit you have a problem, right? Here’s mine: I pick fights with people on the Internet. I know it’s wrong, it gives people a crappy impression of who I am, and it doesn’t solve anything, yet I do it anyway. Not terribly often, but this is the third time this week so something must be up. Maybe I should take some time off.

I apologize for making an argument out of nothing.

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126

We all have things we wrestle with - It is what makes us Human.

I myself find that…even I am prone to doing the same…hell, just read the entirety of this tread and you’ll see what I’m talking about. :wink:

Debating is something we all need as human beings. It’s just learning what you can debate about and win…even then it’s not about winning the debate…it’s about understanding your views vs. someone else’s and then possibly modifying your own beliefs around the subject being debated or getting the other person to change/modify their beliefs.

It opens up new perspectives and gives you a chance to solidify and confirm what you believe to be true while giving you the opportunity to modify and/or change those beliefs…if what the other person is saying makes more sense to you.

you just got to find the right way to channel the desire to pick fights/debate.

Personally. I use my “flipboard” news feed and comment on articles that matter to me and then debate anyone that challenges what I say…It usually devolves into a pissing match…because there are those out there that do it just to be obstinate…But even then, I still learn something from it.

At the end of the day…It get what I need from it and leave the rest.

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127

I apologize, it was uncalled for. Down side of the “like” system on comments is it can give a feel of being device. But that is my perception of it and I recognize that might not be the intention.

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Your interpretation is that I did not answer the question in my reply. I am finishing up a formalized case study for it and wanted to release it as a whole. It’s actually really fascinating to do these case studies. R2R and e waste was what I gave my students for ethical analysis 3 years ago. This was what I gave them last year and it made for a really interesting analysis

@chris1 You’re not wrong in your approach though but I think should check out more formal approaches and source actual policy and standards. You risk coming off in as a conspiracy theorist otherwise. In my optioning, it’s not about “winning an argument” with these type topics. It’s about analyzing the impacts, make a plan that accounts for any possible mitigation’s, and accept any risks.

If you think these topics are good cases to analyze, you should see what these kids will get this year. They are college kids so we do pick more complex topics then “engineer A engineer B” cases.

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129

I think the disconnect here is perhaps that you are presenting a cascading waterfall scenario, rather than the singular topic of right-to-repair - which would be an individual tier in the grand scheme of the product lifecycle and it flows downhill to right-to-repair. It’s a disconnect because you are alluding to these other higher-level factors in right-to-repair but saying very little about them, and I’m only ending up at that after considering your recent posts (in other threads) around e-waste and ethical engineering.

Your outright dismissal of Chris’s objectives/reality post is ignoring a (the?) primary factor of right-to-repair, in my opinion, especially given your all-encompassing view and knowledge of the subject. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and even if you do all of the other things right, it seems to break down if those policy objectives stated in that post aren’t met.

Take the following examples into consideration… these aren’t a bash against Glowforge, but just a few thoughts around e-waste, the consumers’ ability (which is just as important as the right) to repair, etc.

Tube Life & Repair
Co2 tubes are consumable and have a terminable life. Glowforge committed to allowing owners to purchase tubes and replace themselves. This fulfills a certain responsibility, but they also said that zero guidance or instructions would be provided. Also, they’ve yet to meet this obligation so far as I know and haven’t sent anyone a replacement tube yet. The tube is also a proprietary component.

Now, the $499 repair including shipping is pretty generous for users in the USA. It doesn’t fix the ability to repair (lack of parts and information), but at least it’s a good deal. How about international users? They can get their tubes replaced by Glowforge, but also have to deal with/pay for international shipping on a machine deep into its depreciation cycle, significantly reducing the incentive to get it fixed by the manufacturer.

Software
A valid complaint was mentioned early and still mentioned to this day. If Glowforge does go belly-up, is bought out by a competitor and shut-down, or whatever, what happens to your machine? They’ve committed to the release of some source code, to some degree, but AFAIK, this won’t actually make the machine useable. I believe this is actually machine-level code/firmware, and not actually any of the processing capabilities that are accessed through the user app on remote servers.

Unlocking
Early machines had an accessible port where the machine firmware could be flashed. This was removed at some point a long time ago.

Design for Repair Principles
For example, I’ve seen a rash of issues lately with what appears to be a mirror misalignment (or perhaps tube alignment) on non-user serviceable parts. This requires a trip back to a GF-repair facility. Ultimately, alignment, while extremely important to the functionality of a laser machine, is generally a small, user-resolvable issue. But, this isn’t able to be fixed by an end-user, and Glowforge has not made a user-accessible test-fire mode to verify alignment if a user were able to dig into the machine and realign the mirror causing problems.

Glowforge has made good headway in sending out smaller replacement parts that they wouldn’t send in the beginning. I suspect a lot of it was wanting to perform root-cause-analysis on the machines experiencing faults. They’ve also been more lenient in sending out replacement parts, such as replacement boards, the head-control cable, etc. (as @raymondking32 can attest to), but I believe that you are on your own when installing these - no guidance.

A number of issues are still only resolvable by Glowforge themselves though, which probably falls somewhere under the ethical engineering aspect when considering climate issues, and how shipping/transportation relates to the health of the climate.

This probably reads like some kind of GF-bashing, which it isn’t. They are just a few thoughts on the repairability of the machine and addressing the larger picture of ethical engineering, e-waste, etc. that you brought up as being a part of right-of-repair philosophy.

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130

As some sort of a follow-up… as @kory.fransen mentioned above, the nuts and bolts of the machine are fairly straight-forward, even with the multitude of sensors.

There’s no reason that the machine shouldn’t be able to enjoy a long service life, so long as components are replaceable for a reasonable cost in comparison to the machines value and its contribution value in comparison to replacement or changing to another machine. From a tech obsolescence POV, again as Kory mentioned, a ton of this is actually software driven which delays the obsolete factor quite a bit. The hardware is proven, and the software expands the feature set throughout its life.

Glowforge has done a lot in its short life as a company in making the laser industry realize that the existing control software generally sucks in the sense of features. If you haven’t used other laser control software, you might not realize how good you have it with a Glowforge.

Yes, the list of wants is long. And doable. Glowforge has done a really great job of making it easy to just set up and go. Some of the advanced features are missing for more of your “power users.” But the foundation exists for those advanced things to be added without the machine itself being the limiting factor. It’s just a matter of priorities.

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131

(opinion)

I wouldn’t call it fear, I’d call it realism – I think you underestimate the amount of luck you had. Lucky that the damage wasn’t more widespread, lucky that you didn’t accidentally break any delicate components while you were cleaning, lucky that apparently none of the critical components seems to have been outright destroyed, lucky that you even had access to the components that were damaged.

Yes, you proceeded carefully, you took what precautions that you could against accidents, but you were very lucky to get that machine back up and running.

As to wanting glowforge to hire you to repair all of the acid-damaged machines that come in: chances are your salary would be more than the components that you’re saving would be worth, with more labor costs than just assembling a new machine. Yes, e-waste is a problem, but this is not even the tippiest tip of the iceberg when it comes to polluters, so it’s hard for Glowforge to justify the cost of attempting to repair seriously acid- or fire- damaged machines when even the relatively small benefits are all positive externalities.

Economically, it’s just not a good move. The vast bulk of seriously damaged Glowforges are simply total losses.

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132

Oh. I know I was lucky. However, it was a method that was based on theory…a theory that I proved to be accurate and one that WILL work going forward.

I don’t think you realize just how much vinyl I cut before it went out…because not only did I cut vinyl…I also engraved it (to remove the top layer and bring the other layer through).

I probably had over 20+ hours of vinyl cutting/engraving before the machine even started to show signs of corrosion…

Honestly…if I, a simpleton that doesn’t know ANYTHING about lasers, let alone a GF…could tear into this machine and recover it from 20+ hours of vinyl cutting/engraving…It seems, it is not as sensitive as you portray it to be.

I know electronic parts are pretty durable…especially a circuit boards…it’s not hard to look at a circuit board and determine what it does…and GF made it even easier to identify by making all the connections to the circuit board different…it was easy to see where the hang-up on communication was happening and why it was happening…

I disagree with you @evansd2 - just as I did before last year in this thread.

It is not that scary of a machine to tear apart and put back together. I may not have the knowledge of every single little part, sensor or transistor…but I have the confidence and intelligence that I leverage to my advantage.

In this case…I was able to turn a $6k paperweight back into a working $6k machine…that I just sold to another GlowForger…

And I did it with resistance from some of you and NO advice from GF support.

No wait. I take that back. GF support did tell me that there was no communication to the arm…I did the rest.

You’re trying to scare others again…and it’s not working bro.

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Technically this is doable now although incredibly tedious. It would require creating a project that has just one burn dot - a text period ( . ) Would do although many more pixels than truly needed.

Probably want to put 5 of them in an SVG file - each if the 4 corners and one in the middle. All with different colors.

You’d enable the color you wanted based on which corner you wanted to test and hit Print. Then wait for the prep & white button. Hit it, adjust the mirror and repeat.

Post-it paper on the head window like usual and adjustment of the mirror behind the left hand window via removing the left top glass for access to the mirror’s mounting hardware.

Nowhere near as fast & easy as other lasers like a K40 :grin: but doable now.

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134

I’ve cheated and ran a very small job like that before (with tape to see alignment) on the GF but it’s a guessing game and a bit laborious to just get a slight mark rather than burning it to a crisp :slight_smile:

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135

…If that’s true then I guess you don’t disagree with me. Wait, unless you still think Glowforge is intentionally not telling people about the risks of PVC to catch them out? Cause if you do, then yeah I still think you’re incorrect there.

I’m not scaring anyone, I’m trying to paint a realistic picture.

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I much prefer a dedicated “fire laser” button :slightly_smiling_face:.

But you do what you need to with what you have. Never going to be a fire-laser button on the GF.

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Look.

I’m not going to get into with you again. I did something that, as far as we know, nobody else has…and instead of painting a picture of support…you’re painting a picture of resistance and fear about tearing apart this machine…

was I lucky…yes. That I will agree…however…luck only gets you so far…It was my problem solving ability, confidence and determination that also helped me to make this theory a reality.

I can only IMAGINE the FUD that would have been slung my way if I had posted in the forums before I actually did the vinyl cleaning and repair…almost everyone, including you, would have tried to scare me out of doing it…

I don’t think that GF is intentionally not telling people about vinyl…but I still think they need to be more clear on their material compatibility…there are other lasers out there that have a complete and comprehensive collection of usable materials that come with their machines…why GF doesn’t…well, we’ve already been over that…

My point being…it’s not a far stretch to think GF is purposefully mysterious about their materials because it gives them a chance to discover “root causes” of machine failure for those that choose to send them back for repair…it seems GF wants to investigate the problem for themselves and then charge the customer for that research…

It’s a win-win for GF. The customer is desperate to get their very expensive machine fixed and GF is willing to do it for a cost…while also gaining insight into how the machine went down…not only are they gaining insight into their own machine - they’re getting the customer to pay for it…

Not saying this is actually happening…but it is not a far stretch of the imagination to be plausable.

Call in a conspiracy, discredit it all you want…but if it wasn’t true…then GF would make a better effort to publish a comprehensive list of known and dangerous materials for their product.

Period.

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I didn’t want to wade into this, but HE fixed the machine! GOOD!
he sold the fixed machine (I HOPE YOU TOLD NEW BUYER ITS HISTORY)

Jonathan

139

Of course I told the buyer about all this and the vinyl.

She was well aware of the history and had faith in my repair.

and I haven’t heard anything back from her about it not working…so I assume the repair is still going strong.

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140

So now with this knowledge, you ever think about cutting out the bottom of your GF so you can engrave bottles, etc?

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He sold it.

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yes, doing this to another glowforge…

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here is my crazy idea,

Cutting out the bottom of a GF and then adding in a vacuum chamber, that places the GF into a ‘negative’ space - then cutting ‘unsafe’ materials, and the acrid / caustic gasses never touch any of the equipment, i am just pondering something ‘out of the box’

and as long as I am on the subject, @kory.fransen can you post some pics of the stuff you did? (created using the PVC)

when it rains mustard gas, make hot dogs