Terms and Conditions - Draconian


#21

I think Dan should find legal help that can write in a language his customers can understand.


#22

Good luck with that.


#23

That would be oxymoronic for legalize… :zipper_mouth_face:


#24

Just another way of saying the company is not authorizing 3rd party resellers of their products. Even that seems to be limited to commercial resale. Individuals have sold their personal Glowforge printers and the company has enabled the exchange.

There is a lot more onerous language in the T&S and T&C. Standard legal language that everyone ignores or has lived in the stone age without phone, cable, internet, Facebook, Instagram, commercial S/W, etc.


#25

Here is a bigger point, we don’t tolerate this sort of thing in software, why do we put up with bad contracts IRL? Keeping in mind we are for the most part ordinary consumers, Dan should recognize this as a “bug” in his business process and press his vendors, i.e. the authors of this to do a better job.


#26

Because the people who can fix it are the people for whom it is in their best interests to argue that it needs to stay the way it is.


#27

I’m curious what you mean by this. Many software packages also come with complex agreements that practically never get read. Or did you mean something else?


#28

What are you talking about? I hope that you realize that lawyers representing these companies create these terms & conditions specifically to address liabilities that they might be exposed to, and that these practices are the direct result of the types of lawsuits that companies have had to respond to in the past?

Do some contracts abuse this? Absolutely. But, I don’t understand what you are specifically complaining about with the GF terms.

Maybe I spend too much time reading and negotiating contracts with clients, but nothing in the GF terms comes across as “bad” for consumers. There might be terms in there that I would renegotiate if I was trying to establish a business partnership relationship with GF; but, I’m not, and unless @dan is looking for security consulting services, I never will.


#29

As far as terms and conditions go, I actually think they’re pretty fair and reasonably easy to understand. Yeah, some things are phrased in a slightly confusing way, like “you represent.” Which isnt how we would normally phrase something like that. But they dont go out of their way to be confusing. And they dont try to grant themselves unlimited cosmic powers. Which I appreciate.


#30

And, they may be confusing to us as legal laymen, but the words and phrases often have very specific legal meanings.


#31

I think he is referring to software bugs, though I know many people and companies that put up with it and many large software copmanies that charge for a fix to be implemented.


#32

The closest I’ve seen to trying to make this stuff approachable is something my bank sends out once a year (I’m deleting the pictures of animals they intersperse in an attempt to be even more cutesy):

It’s that time of year again, Christopher!
(The time of year where we show up in your inbox to share with you our annual notice of privacy policy updates and remind you about Regulation E.)

As always, we’ll quickly run you through the changes we’ve made to our privacy policy before diving into the helpful and yet also lengthy Regulation E. Let’s begin!

Oh hey, privacy policy updates

As you may know, your Simple account was issued and is backed by BBVA Compass (that’s why every email you get from us says that in the footer). Simple’s Privacy Policy and BBVA Compass’ Privacy Practices explain the type of info we collect and how we use it. In short, we don’t sell your data to anyone. Ever. We do use it to meet legal requirements and to make Simple better.

New this year in Simple’s Privacy Policy:

  • In the “Information From Other Sources” section, we clarified that we can use info we gather from other sources to verify eligibility for products and services.
  • We’ve changed a few things in the “Information We Collect Automatically from our Services” section:
    • In the “Device Information” subsection, we note that we may collect other info from your device to detect and prevent fraud, including your device’s battery life, if the device is moving, and its camera capabilities.
    • In the “Location Information” section, we clarify that we collect your precise location per your device’s permission settings. Also, we note that we may use your IP address to get your approximate location.
    • We created a new “Stored Information” section. This section lists out what stored info on your device we can access per your device’s permission settings, including your contacts and photos (for things like adding a photo to a transaction, for instance).
    • In the “Information Collected by Cookies and Other Tracking Technologies” section, we removed a reference to “other websites” because Simple does not track you across third-party sites.
  • In the “Location Information” subsection of the “Your Choices” section, we updated language to match the edit in the “Information We Collect Automatically from our Services” section and also clarify that you can turn off location information collection at any time.
  • In the “Analytics and Advertising Services Provided by Others” section we added a bit about how the analytics services we use may use device identifiers to collect info about your use of online services, including your mobile network and time spent in apps. Also, depending on your mobile device capabilities, you may be able to opt out of having certain info collected for behavioral advertising purposes.

Reg E, so helpful and also so long

Regulation E is the bit of banking legalese that lets you know exactly how we handle fraud on customers’ accounts. It’s really important stuff for you to know, which is why we’re required to remind you about it each year. It can also be a bit tough (and frankly, boring) to read, so follow along with us and we’ll translate it into human-speak as we go.

We presently offer many bank services that may be considered “Electronic Fund Transfers,” including, but not limited to, Automated Teller Machine (“ATM”) transactions through the STAR®, PLUS® or Allpoint® acceptance marks / networks; point-of-sale (“POS”) transactions; ACH transactions, including, but not limited to, direct deposits and preauthorized withdrawals; automated telephone transfers; and online transfers.

Translation: This first bit—so full of acronyms (as legalese is wont to be)—sums up the common ways you can move money into and out of your Simple account through card swipes, transfers, and ATMs.

Tell us AT ONCE if you believe your Card and/or PIN has been lost or stolen. Telephoning is the best way of keeping your possible losses down. You could lose all the money in your account. If you tell us within two (2) business days after you learn of the loss or theft of your Card and/or PIN, you can lose no more than $50 if someone used your Card and/or PIN without your permission. If you do NOT tell us within two (2) business days after you learn of the loss or theft of your Card and/or PIN you could lose as much as $500.
Also, if your statement shows transfers that you did not make, tell us at once. If you do not tell us within sixty (60) days after the statement was made available to you, you may not get back any money you lost after the sixty (60) days if we can prove that contacting us would have prevented the loss. If a justified reason kept you from notifying us (appropriate documentation may be required), we will extend the time periods.

Translation: If you think your card has been lost or stolen, block it in the app and let us know by calling us ASAP. Acting fast is important to protect your info and your money. The longer you wait, the more money you might lose. This is a rule designed to prevent common types of bank fraud.

If you believe that your Card or PIN has been lost or stolen or that someone has transferred or may transfer money from your account without your permission, immediately contact the Customer Relations team at +1 888-248-0632. You may be required to confirm the information provided by writing to us at the following address:
Simple Finance Technology Corp
_PO Box #28462 _
Portland, OR 97228
Phone: +1 888-248-0632
https://www.simple.com

Translation: Though it’s definitely not likely, there may be times in which you have to write us a real letter on actual paper (really!) to officially document fraudulent activity on your account. We don’t get a ton of letters here at Simple, so we promise we’ll cherish it forever (and also we’ll work to take care of your situation).

If you believe an Electronic Fund Transfer transaction was processed in error or was unauthorized, or if you need more information about a transfer listed on your statement or receipt, you must contact Simple no later than 60 days after we sent the FIRST statement on which the problem or error appeared.
(1) Tell us your name and account number (if any).
(2) Describe the error or the transfer you are unsure about, and explain as clearly as you can why you believe it is an error or why you need more information.
(3) Tell us the dollar amount of the suspected error.
(4) If you tell us orally, we may require that you send us your complaint or question in writing within 10 business days.
We will determine whether an error occurred within 10 business days after we hear from you and will correct any error promptly. If we need more time, however, we may take up to 45 days to investigate your complaint or question. If we decide to do this, we will credit your account within 10 business days for the amount you think is in error, so that you will have the use of the money during the time it takes us to complete our investigation. If we ask you to put your complaint or question in writing and we do not receive it within 10 business days, we may not credit your account.
For errors involving new accounts, point-of-sale, or foreign-initiated transactions, we may take up to 90 days to investigate your complaint or question. For new accounts, we may take up to 20 business days to credit your account for the amount you think is in error.
We will tell you the results within three business days after completing our investigation. If we decide that there was no error, we will send you a written explanation. You may ask for copies of the documents that we used in our investigation.

Translation: This might sound anticlimactic, but all of those words just let you know what happens when you get in touch with us about suspected fraudulent activity, and what info we’ll need from you in order to investigate. Basically: you get in touch with us, tell us a few important things, and then we figure out what happened, let you know, and work to fix it.

And that wraps things up. Really. Like, we’re done. If you made it this far, rest assured knowing that you know more about the ins and outs of Electronic Fund Transfers regulation than most.

May the rest of your day be free of legalese,

— The Team at Simple


#33

Yup, Simple is the best!


#34

Everyone is so up in arms about things they are probably misinterpreting, while I’m over here super exited about all the new features that were alluded to in there!


#35

So they’ve hired an interpreter. :smile:


#36

Unless i am much mistaken a major effort is made by the legal profession is to avoid that at all costs


#37

Chris1’s post is exactly what I mean, simple to read and understandable. Another point, I own several sophisticated kitchen appliances. I don’t recall any license agreements I had to agree to before using them.

That being said, as an engineer there are so many ways you can harm yourself with this gadget, the most notable of which is sticking some chlorine enhanced substance into the cutter without proper ventilation. My irrational fear of that happening is for me a big selling point of the proofgrade materials. That is the big liability issue for this product, contract or no contract. It is a sexy product that invites use by people who may or may not have had chemistry in high school.

I hope and pray this is a non-issue because an incident would be bad for the DIY industry and bad for GF owners as parts and service would become an issue if Dan gets his skirt caught by some trial lawyer.

My speculation is, as not being an attorney, that an unread and/or unreadable contract would be a huge lever for a trial lawyer.

The first step in my opinion as a software guy is split the contract into EU, US and everywhere else versions. But then again I write instructions for dumb chips, not the general public. :slight_smile:


#38

I’m a little confused. Why is it unreadable? I know it is awkward and verbose and full of legal stuff to protect both the company and the user – but it is very readable, just not something most of us are really interested in doing necessarily. I would hate to “dumb it down” if you will, because those type of documents don’t seem to hold up very well in the case of a dispute. Thats’ why legal language was developed in the first place. This can be a dangerous tool – it behoves us to take the time to do this right.


#39

Thank you for your feedback. We’ve worked hard to make these agreements understandable, and I’m very sorry it wasn’t clear. It’s fine to sell items made with Proofgrade.


closed #40