Want to feel better about the Delays?

Continuing the discussion of the Muse review posted by @thanos2001(thanks for that!) WHAT THE WHAT! PRODUCTION UNIT! :squee: - #128 by thanos2001 , I wanted to ensure it’s visibility rather than it being buried 130 posts deep where it might be missed.

Dang, I feel for those customers, after dropping 5k I’m sure they expected more. For my expense and experience with the PRU, they got much less for more money.

Dan has always been quick to praise a competitor rather than bad-mouth them publicly. An admirable display of business ethics. FSL should take notes. :no_mouth:

By emulating the innovations of glowforge, and comparing the Muse to it they (inadvertently) effectively establish glowforge as the standard to aspire to. (Whoops)
It is beneath you to shout it out, but revel in it privately Dan, you earned it. :+1:

Consider how much easier for an established laser manufacturer to modify than for a new company to come out of the hole. The Muse falling somewhat short is a reflection of the difficulty of implementing the innovations glowforge brings.
Their success is a tribute to the founders, their vision, and the team they assembled to make it happen. By refusing to compromise on their ideal to deliver the best they can, they distance themselves into a comfortable first place.

Stark difference between company focus and ethics. @dan stood up and took a beating for missing predicted ship dates twice rather that ship something that fell short. He did that for us, his customers. It hurt him but helped us. That my friends is leadership

I am proud to have been an early backer and the employees of glowforge should be proud of the company they work for. I would be.

Signed, your friendly neighborhood cheerleader. :tada:


this whole comparison is silly, i’m not sure we needed another thread dedicated to the muse in order to feel superior.

a number of times people on this forum take vicious glee in seeing how the competition acts and the things they do, and i don’t see the reason. sure, there are users and reps for the other company that are little more than churlish digital thugs.

the best reaction would be to have sympathy for their customers, as i wager most of them aren’t involved in these little spats. they’re just getting fleeced.


I dunno, I learned some new info from this, and I think it’s always good to point out virtues; people forget quickly…


i don’t disagree but consider that pointing out virtues doesn’t require comparisons.


It just made me feel much better about the delays we endured and wanted to share that.

I’m sure the Muse will continue to evolve, and they bring some great innovation with the removable bottom for the Z depth we all miss so much.
The point of the post is salve for the repeated punch in the gut delays we got hit with. There was a good reason for it.


I’m interested in The Muse because Full Spectrum Laser (FSL) is targeting me directly as someone who early-birded the GF. Also, FSL was the company I researched the most when I first had an interest in getting a home laser. A buddy knew about that research and sent me info about this GF thing he was considering backing. That conversation ended with both of us in the pre-order.

I know a number of businesses who exist because of the FSL line of lower cost lasers. They’ve done successful Kickstarters and have remained a force in the industry. I’ve got a lot of respect for them and the products they make. I also know myself, and the appliance nature of the GF is more in line with what I care to deal with.

One thing the Muse has going for it is a removable bottom tray and a rotary attachment. The same reviewer posted a review of that product working. This is an area I know I’d love to expand into where there is zero option on either GF or GF Pro. At some point, I’ll be looking elsewhere or consider picking up a 2nd gen GF to address this feature. Muse Rotary Tool

The bottom line for me is more info is always better.




The removable bottom is a great innovation to the desktop laser, and I would fully expect glowforge to return the favor and emulate that in a future iteration.


I think their lawyers would freak out. If its taken two years to write the safety instructions for a 3/8" slot, how long would a bottomless laser take?

I don’t think FSL care much about safety. The customer himself decided it might be a good idea to stick a bit of wood in front.


@jrnelson, I get where you are coming from on the whole, but I think there are cases, though, where these comparisons can’t really be avoided, and in some cases shouldn’t be avoided. I’ve read a lot of what FS has put out and they are the ones that seem obsessed with making the comparisons every chance they get, and they don’t seem to be above throwing a lot of misinformation into the mix while they are at it. It has lessened my respect for the company as a whole–not the users of their machines, if I had a buddy who had a muse I would be at his house right now bugging him to let me use it. So when @PrintToLaser writes up something positive and points out the obvious comparisons between the two I don’t think it hurts. After all, these forums may be for purchasers only, but it’s read a lot by people doing their own research and that information should be out there as well. I agree, taking pleasure in FS customers pain is going too far. I know how I feel when something I buy shows up and doesn’t work. Wouldn’t wish that on anyone. And there’s no guarantee that my GF won’t be DOA, it could happen to anyone, and has happened before and will happen to me again, I have no doubt.

I don’t want to dwell on it, it’s too much of a downer, but I don’t mind when it’s discussed civilly.


Well said. I take no pleasure in the pain of others, and I don’t know who to attribute it to but I believe “The only reason you should look down on someone is if you are reaching down to help them up”. Companies are different.
I think @jrnelson mistook my meaning, easy enough to interpret that way, and that’s my fault for not being clearer. His point is well taken, I dislike the taunting of others - I can’t tolerate those shows that play video clips of others hurting themselves doing foolish things.

The Muse was the first and only time I considered canceling my order here. That Z depth is very attractive. I do feel fortunate that I chose to hang with glowforge. :wink:


I talked with one Glowforge preorder who was a bit taken aback when we started discussing the Z axis limitation. For some reason they thought that they would be able to engrave wine glasses directly with the Glowforge. I explained that the forum solution has been to use a laser safe masking and sandblasting as the best way to do glasses like this.

So setting aside the whole schadenfreude thing, for some people the Z axis depth is the single most important thing for them and Glowforge for v.1 is narrowly limited. That’s been clear from the start, but does take some reading.


Hope you had a good time at the faire!

Yep, the Z is a big limit, but the price point is why I bought. In order to do that, they had to draw a line somewhere.


I came by a FS booth a few months back, and saw more than one GF preorder come up and talk with them. They were vicious about GF: they’re frauds, the hardware doesn’t exist, they’re going to go out of business and give you nothing in return. They were demoing on $20k lasers and telling people they will get the same product for $5k.

I wouldn’t call that glee, or schadenfreude. It’s unethical, in any case. They’ve earned a reputation for that, and they deserve to have that pointed out.


Seems like that should be hard to say when all anyone has to do is walk down a few booths and see working machines. Nasty sales tactics get you nasty reviews.

Oh well, I hope that Glowforge causes other companies to “see the light” and better their product in the future. Competition should bring out the best in everyone but oh well.

I really feel bad for this guy in the review video. He sounds very bummed out about the quality of what he got.


Several years ago, one of my artisan friends was talking about a competitor in a very positive and encouraging light. It was such a marked difference from how you typically hear business owners talk about their competition, that I said something to the effect of “Wow, it really sounds like you want to see your competitor succeed!”. Without skipping a beat, she said “Yes I do! They’re cool people and they’re good at what they do. Their success simply helps to pave the way for the rest of us … and besides, my success doesn’t depend on anyone else’s failure!

Her confident and positive perspective really stuck with me, and I try to emulate it. Granted, I still have little patience for petty/unethical people, and I can get a bit rabid about that - but I’m fortunate to have many friendly competitors who respect and encourage one another. If your product and service are of good quality, there’s really no reason to behave otherwise.


He just posted another update yesterday, doesn’t sound like he’s had any more luck.


Just to be clear, when I disparage FS (and I do) it’s not because I feel superior! I feel extremely lucky, and FWIW I don’t relish in the dissatisfaction of their customers - I truly sympathize. Nobody deserves to be treated like that.

I started exploring the idea of a hobby laser around 2012 - a few years before :glowforge: even existed. At that time, my options (or at least, what I was aware of) were a cheap Chinese laser, FSL, or a maker space. Chinese laser was ruled out quickly, YMMV - just knew it wasn’t right for me. Maker space was possible, but involved a whole mountain of logistical issues and limitations. I really needed a tool that could live in my home/studio.

That left FS as the most viable option, but minimal research revealed their reputation for lousy customer service. Again, this was well before :glowforge: hit the market, so that negative feedback was squarely on FS’ shoulders. The rumors of faulty equipment and uncommonly poor CS were prevalent enough to give me pause… but I also really needed a dang laser.

At one point, I tried to rationalize that FS is a short drive for my stepdad. He’s the nicest man on the planet, but you do not want to mess with his cubs. So for half a minute I actually thought that I’d go ahead and buy a machine from FS - and if anything went sideways, I’d just send my dad up to straighten things out. Then it dawned on me that I was applying grade school solutions to grown up problems. Not cool. I wrestled with that dilemma (was the risk worth the reward?) for quite some time, so when I saw the GF ad, it really felt like the solution I’d been waiting for.

Fast forward nearly 2 years. It’s been a rocky ride, the delays have been very stressful, my money was tied up, and I still ended up laser-less during my busiest season. :glowforge: has been less than stellar about communication, and while I am so grateful to have this PRU at my disposal, it still has a few bugs to work out. Even so - even with all of the negatives that I’ve just outlined, I’m absolutely thrilled with this machine. The support team has been great about responding quickly and professionally to questions and concerns, and they were extremely generous with proof grade materials.

I’m not a cheerleader, not a shill, and most definitely not a pollyanna. Also, not trying to pick a fight. With all of those disclaimers out of the way, if the product that I have - and the treatment that I’ve experienced thus far from @staff - is any indicator of what’s to come, then I’m completely confident that I made the right choice. In fact, I kinda feel like I dodged a bullet.


It looks like they pushed out a software update without telling anyone and it basically has gotten hung up on a bunch of the machines.

This is the main reason i am really happy that the GF software is in the cloud. I know there can still be issues when they update, but the chance of this type of issue are greatly decreased since it is just the server that have to be updated.


I didn’t have the money for a laser disc player when they were released (lucky me), but I did fork over several hundred dollars for an early Sony DVD player. One video store fifteen miles away rented DVDs. Best Buy had two sections of one rack (maybe four feet total shelf space) selling DVDs. Netflix didn’t exist. If they had sold as many DVD players as they did laser disc players I would have been part of a tiny little niche. (I’ll stop the analogy here as streaming and the fact I haven’t bought or rented a DVD in many years just destroys it.)

The more companies selling living room laser cutters, and the more they sell, the more we all benefit. I want a world where big box and internet retailers sell not only laser safe materials, but the equivalent of proofgrade materials. Millions of laser cutters, and not tens of thousands, need to be sold and used for that to happen.